Welcome to #GeekSpeak. Before we begin, I'd like to remind you that all channel logs are the copyright of the channel owners: Pankaj Saxena and Tom Wright. Logs may not be redistributed in any form without the prior consent of the channel owners. Tonight's discussion is on the "Servitude Summit" and will be moderated by Tom Wright. As usual, the discussion will be conducted in keyword-protected mode. If you see someone off-channel whom you think would like to join the discussion and would not be disruptive, please message me or Wright. Go ahead, Tom. Good evening everyone. Tonight we are going to be discussing the so-called "service summit" this weekend. As usual, I'll be holding a loosely structured discussion. If the conversation sticks on one part of the topic for a while, that's fine with me. I'm assuming that everyone here is familiar with both the summit and ARI's campaign against it. If you are not, I suggest looking at ARI's page www.aynrand.com/no_servitude/ To start out, I'd like to ask, is there a problem with the summit? If so what is it? Tom do you mean among O'ists ? Among anyone That's "org" -- not "com" Here is a major problem: it is asking people to devote themselves to ameliorating problems that the government's own policy have primarily caused. yes! Clinton is asking for altruism to be the forced American way ack.. you're right Betsy They're preaching altruism as a virtue and talking about legislating it. I'd say that the problem with the summit is its basic theme that the problem with America is not enough "volunteering". www.aynrand.org./no_servitude http://www.aynrand.org/no_servitude The idea that if you aren't sweeping nursing homes and serving soup you're "sitting on the sidelines", as Colin Powell said. any examples of how they are forcing altruism? U: That is a good point, and also demonstrates how little conservatives/Repubs have to offer capitalists/egoists Johnny: The particular opportunity is that _WE_ are the ONLY opposition and it is a MORAL issue. In the highschools to graduate one must complete some community service I was going to get into reasons to fight the summit in a few minutes Not only bipartisian but President is speaking "from" the office , no ? segelbe: Good point. He is making exactly the point Ayn Rand claimed in her essay on ethics: that self-interest has historically been viewed either as immoral, or amoral at best. Okay, to play devil's advocate for a minute... So Bill Gates is not laudable -- he is merely selfish. Someone humming an Ode To Kant while dumping a bedpan from some incoherent imbecile is a national hero. This is evil. What's wrong with requiring service as a graduation requirement? After all, we require students to learn algebra? Is this not another lesson to be learned? also the poisonous notion that dumping bedpans is the only way to "make a difference". Speaking of Bill Gates, MSNBC was doing a real push on the servitude idiocy today. Learning algebra is for oneself....community service is for others Jon they've been doiung that all week. I for one loved the loaded questiuonaire It puts the whole community above oneself Wright: The problem, is that it embodies a profoundly incorrect metaphysical premise: the malevolent universe, whose inhabitants are cogenital incompetents. But this is false. But, why isn't serving the community a lesson that all students should learn? wright: because education is supposed to build the mind and charaacter of the student, not force him to ditch them. Todd: but won't it make the student a better person? because you don't owe anything to the community. You do not exist for the sake of its continuance. In fact, the need to *help* other people, is pretty small really, and would be vastly less so under a fully free system and a better social ethic. joe: Why isn't a sense of duty to the community a part of good character? Tom, not in a rational self-interest sense. Because one is learning the principle of altruism in doing it...the concrete act is not relevant a "sense of duty" towards a community implies that what the "community" decides it wants must supersede what *you* want, yourself, selfishly. becauise it means subortinatong your jugemennt. Duty is when you do it when you aren't sure why.. or if it is against your interst Wright: But there are many *legitimate* ways in which "civic spirit" can be inculcated, but that relates to things like respecting rights, understanding politics and law, etc. wright: philosophy aside, it is alsopsychologically damaging, it forces the student to neglect his happiness and emotional / spiritual need. s Tom....WE know:) it places the community above any individual Why not teach students to look beyond their selves? but joe... they claim that service indeed fills that gap good point Joe....it is anti human survival to live in such a way They all have as their base, the benefit of the individual student. Service, by contrast, is not motivated by the student's own benefit. And there is no rational defense for altruism. Brad: But does it not benefit the student by making him a more moral person? kpart: disagree no community that isn't made up of cannibals can claim the right to dispose of the lives, time and energy of its members. segelbe: we're not talking about cannibals, just a little help for the unfortunate Tom, moral based on what? Morality is based on human life as the standard and altruism is ANTI human life but tom, what if there are not unfortunates... then how can we be virtuous if we help them all there are NO unforuntates.. sorry One doesnt become more moral by acting against ones nature Todd: how is it anti-life? isn altruism just a philosophy of being good to others, helping out those in need once in a while? the fact that there are people who need help is not a claim on the energy of the able. Tom....your good....BUT.....Altruism is placing others ABOVE oneself not just helping them a little....thats benevolence And altruism is a principle to be used ....in every act in life according to those who preach it if I see someone drowning but there aren't sharks or acid in the water, of course I'll do my damndest to get him out. That doesn't obligate me to spend my life as a lifeguard. How can we let people ACCEPT help? Doesn't that make the recipients evil. They are taking without "giving back." Okay, even if altruism is as bad as you say, how does a summit that encourages youth to help others a bit lead to this rampant self sacrifice? Isn't that a leap? hmmmm... Wright: But morality is defined by its basic principles, and the morality of egoism is the only rationally defensible one -- it would not counsel sacrificial service to others, especially during such a crucial time as one's youth,. the govt's involved Wright: It's the PRINCIPLE of the thing. Wright: it's not so much that, but the fact that the government is doing the "leading"...sounds like the Hitler Youth to me. because it isn't "volunteering" that makes any kind of real difference. It's independent thought, creativity and drive. ALl of that is selfish and "commercial". wright: it does mmore than encourge a litle bit. it makes it a moral issue. A moral person will put his own interests first. It's natural - it doesn't force a person to deny their own value. That sacrifice is what would be immoral. All this talk of principles... you people seem rather extreme to me. Isn't extremism waht really led to people like the Nazis and the Hitler Youth? It also goes to show that once altruism is accepted as the ideal, political freedom is soon to be forgotten. You bet we're extreme! Wright: Given all the apathy, and teen suicide, and school violence, and drop outs, and such, it would seem that the most crucial need is a Selfishness Summit. Helping others will just have to wait. Say it, BradA! exactly Sarah....and Hitlers idealogy was extreme too....the other extreme BradA: good point...all the mess of the youth these days is precisely because they have given up on them*selves*. Three cheers for Brads point:) Why else do you think they join gangs, to improve themselves? "volunteering" is just another variety of selflessness. and it doesn't break out of the notion that if you aren't "giving" you're "taking". why be so extreme? Why not seek a middle ground between selfishness and self sacrifice? It was _complacency_ that allowed Hitler to control the people. Wright: Well, yes, when you pursue any principle extremely, it takes you to the extremely logical principles built in to the principle. Volunteering is fine, but voluteering ends where a gun begins ;) what if a little of each is the thing? Tom, any compromise with the evil and the evil wins So people who are extremely industrious tend to become extremely rich. "one extreme is white and the other is black, but the middle is always gray." (approximate AR quote) tom, or a diploma Brad: that is an excellent idea! perhaps ARI can organize a "Selfishness Summit" soon. how does just a little poison sound? People who are extremely selfless and mindless and power worshipping tend to become extremely trapped in an extreme dictatorship. People who are extremely rational and extremely egoistic tend to become extremely successful and extremely happy. joe: Right on! I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another or let another live for my sake! Amy not complacency it was the philosophic base of German culture :) To The Attack!!!! All right, I think we've covered all the bases on why the summit is bad One more thing about the summit: it is a case of *evasion* on a massive scale. the country is going to hell in a handbasket, and the only thing gen. powell et al. can think of is as the cause is that there is not enough altruism, as if that were the source of the probs. clap clap clap everyone:) anyone care to summarize what we have so far? :) oops: my early comment should have read 'takes you to the extremely logical conclusions' not 'principles' Altruism is wrong and Selfishness it right Powell and others may not be trying to say this lack of altruism is the *only* cause. I've seen a lot of crap in the publicity for this thing, but not quite that. Joe: That's not evasion. It's not as if Powell and the others know what we know and are evading it. mencken: no, i disagree. see the summit web site. I like concise descriptions, but perhaps a bit less concise than Todd :) The Service summit offers the poison for the cure. It is altruism, instead of selfishness, that got this country in the mess it is in. joe: They are literally trapped in their world view. They don't have the tools to see anything else. That is where we come in -- we show there is an alternative. Powell has said explicitly that the purpose of this summitt is to get people "off the sidelines and onto the playing field" How else should we take this to mean? :) -t Powell may be confusing military "service" with what Clinton wants, but he is helping to lead the youth to slaughter. Okay. Next topic: Why is it important to express our views on this subject as opposed to others? segelbe: He is an altruist. He is a typical victim of this implicit/explicit dichotomy that is ripping America apart and destroying it. And we're the lemmings who won't jump! Betsy: no, i think they sense that they are wrong and are evading having to think about it. Wright: Because Objectivism is the only philosophy that has not accepted sacrifice as the human ideal. tom, it was already mentioned... peoiple thing that ther eis no alternative to egoism Becuase ones freedon is the base of all other rights He obviously got to his position by hard work and a very selfish, egoistic ethos. But that is implicit -- when he opens his mouth, it is the same old altruistic bromides. to altruism.. doh! Wright: This is the first big, fat, public MORAL issue where we can take a big, fat public MORAL stand. Wright: because no one else is. also, it is a fairly simple issue that can be discussed without ref to lots of other issues. Wright: Because this issue is specifically moral -- they have made a moral principle the centerpiece of their campaign and summit. So the key is that we can take a moral stand opposite to almost all others? So attacking it is extremely effective, because they have explicitly declared their premises, unlike so much today which merely implicitly relies on altruistic/collectivistic premises. sure they wouldn't know a moral issue if it knocked them over with a feather. (mixing metaphors) It took christianity 400 years. It will take egoism how many? a lot less since we make sense.... not as long :-) Rick: About fifty. 30 down, twenty to go. :) WRight: Exactly! Our views stand out. Betsy: Don't you mean 40? This is the anniversary year of "Atlas." :) Question: What is worse, the promotion of altruism, or it's enforcement in the schools? what=which the former leads to the latter I think Objectivism as an active cultural force started about 30 years ago. which is more fundamental? The enforcement...trying to control the minds of the youth This summit seems to be talking the enforcement of altruism and its promotion in the schools. All the environmental activism forced on kids, for one, scares me. wright: the latter is an instance of the former. acceptance or promotion ? promotion is more fundamental I find it very encouraging that the Objectivists protest opinion articles are being published at all. ? to promote one must first acept the principle ? Wright: the promotion of altruism is the *source* of the widespread acceptance in the schools. Cut that out and watch the "crash". We are the *only* opposing view ;) Todd: There are Libertarians that would applaud the idea of altruism and service, but who would oppose it's requirement. Are they our allies here? Hell no! Todd: We're the "other side" of the issue. The ONLY "other side." Wright: they are not our allies because they do not reject the morality of it, only its practicality. ok I get it:) Wright: Haven't met many of those, really. All the l's I know are almost egotistical, let alone egoistical. Tom: Objectivist ideas are fresh and controversial -- they have great news value, so it is natural they will begin appearing more. I think it's kind of funny that I get called a fascist for advocating capitalism and egoism, but oh, well. :) Wright: Altruistic libertarians? I haven't encountered any. betsy:christ rise was predicated on the decline of civilization. Objectism's rise is predicated on the continuing advance of the underdog capitalism in a world ruled by collectivism>>nilism one thing about forcing service in schools: that will only promote ill will towards the people that the students are forced to sacrifice their lives to. and also racism, since many of those will be from various racial miinority groups. BradA: i don't think that's it. i think newspapers like to present various viewpoints, and the Objectivist stance is the only one of its kind. Brad: Never run into a Christian Libertarian? They're all over BradA: I've seen lots of them. Yick. BradA: There are many. Tim Starr on h.p.o. was grossed out when I rejected all concepts of "duty." joe-: I think that is the underlying point...can you think of a better way for some future dictator-to-be to use as an excuse that the people must be ruled for their own safety? I hear them all the time... "I really like Ayn Rand...except for the 'no god' part" TomM....you said it....the seat belt law is an example of that. Todd: On a very minor level, yes. Betsy: Are you sure? Many people misconstrue "duty" as fulfilling one's freely chosen obligations or promises. Jonny: I think state education has done tremendous damage to our society -- it is one of the three core evils. Just an exmple:) Wright: Now, I have met many deistic Objectivists. 1. Public schools; 2. Business regulation. 3. State fiat money. Mencken: then they're misusing the term "duty" as it applies in this context. They ought to distribute some of the chapter's on the rise of nazi germany in ominous parallels at the "volunterr" conference BradA: And to think Clinton wants to extend that type of influence to the entirity of the youth's formative years. deistic proto-objectivists maybe segelbe: Indeed they are, but one must remember how many concepts are distorted. Clearing away rubbish makes things easier to clean. Why are fiats not sold in the US any more? or Alfa-romeos. mencken: But only a minority of deistic Objectivist's are particularly altruistic, at least not virulently so, in my experience. rick: You can make a plug for it on the open forum dedicated to the summit at www.citizenservice.org (you have to dig to find the open forum section). Wright....your kidding no? no Mencken: The context with Starr was Rand's essay "Causality vs. Duty" which he strongly disagreed with. doh! Wright: don't log off...you may not get back on! took me nearly forty minutes. BradA 1,2 and3 are results of altuism as applied to scio/econ sytems , no ? it's all right, I got it Betsy: Ah. That's a pivotal bit of reasoning. TomM: State education is inherently collectivist. Even if started in a free, egoistic culture, it must eventually degenerate into mind control, indoctrination, collectivization, and now, outright servitude. Okay, let's move on to tactics Mt_J: If we still had the nearly all private schools of 125 years ago, we wouldn't have this summit even being considered. BradA: Of course...since the state won't be able to resist supporting itself via that means. What do you think of ARI's campaign so far? Anything you would add or remove? Please elaborate. Tad: Well, they are all manifestations of very bad philosophic, and more specialized ideas. Wright: I think this is the BEST campaign yet, and it's being very well received...or at least it's being very well publicised. from what I've seen of the campaign so far (in USA Today and the WWW) it rocks. Turn up the volume! I have to wonder whether the picketers won't look foolish. We're neophites at this kind of thing. Wright: I have been following, and I am really impressed. I hope they are getting good exposure. I hope that press conference goes well! What a press conference! IDEAS!!!! But the written materials are nicely fiery. BradA: Kinda blows you over, doesn't it? ;) "I know not what course others may take...!" Yes, some are still missing from the web site. The ARI work was VERY carefully planned by people who know how to organize and communicate -- especially Richard Ralston and Scott McConnell. Ralston is great:) Tom: Yup. And this is the kind of thing that gets the bucks flowing in, too. I bet their contributions really get a jolt from this! Which makes the next campaign even better equipped. Would like a larger version. About the flyer, unfortunately it could, though it hasn't yet, be taken as anti-patriatism, since a similar poster was used to get *volunteers* for WWII. mencken: A larger version of what? The graphic on the ARI poster of Uncle Bill Wants You. Is there a possibility of getting one of those posters? Jonny: The web site was a bit slow, but the people at ARI have been working on this for some time what about the effect of the summit on business. I'll expect to see the reprecussions in some new "volunteer" type programs at work. Maybe with a little carrot or a stick I wish there was a way to calculate how much of the ARI articles are using up the internet as people come in to check it out. Todd: Sure thing... I'll mail one to you That goes for anyone else Wright: me too! Great thanks Tom:) Our club is running the poster as an ad in the MAss Daily Collegian 50,000+ people in the altruist-statist epi-center of New England will see it. Do you have my address Me first Sarah:) Send me an e-mail with snail mail addresses :) todd: You can get one from davidb@aynrand.org I want to frame it! Tom is closer:) Rick: I have an ad for the Summit with several large companies pledging their employee's time. tlwright@umich.edu ARI should be charging to send those out, except to student clubs. I mean, it's going to cost them a bundle. ok Tom will do:>) However, I'll take one ;) somebody I think it was betsey mentioned that those two phone companies that are meging got the gov't ok and that they are helping publisize or finance the summit for those who haven't seen the new NewsWeek, it features Colin Powell doing the "I want YOU" gesture. TomM: Maybe a subsidy is what the contributions would go best for. I remember how poor our Obj club was. TomM: Your contribution money at work. Betsy: sure, and I sent them some especially for this. just an interesting turn of events. :) What with the required student activity fees, etc. I've been using my own money in buying ads and making posters. Hundreds of dollars. It'll be worth it, though. Chamilton: on the cover or what? I haven't felt this excited about Objectivism for a long time...it's great! segelbe: Yep. Cover photo. Keith: Funnel your money thru ARI and you can deduct it. Keith: You have no club treasury to cover it? Wright: not yet. Tom: Most people seem to get it when you explain what these folks are trying to do. Betsy: good idea. What college are you at, KeithD? UMass-Amherst "natural keyboard"? Tom: The unwashed masses still aren't ready to accept slavery. Okay, I have one last question Keith: Ask for help from the guys at Harvard. What can individuals do? Odegard: that's true! One of my customers who I know is very religious framed the Constitution years back. Today, she placed another order, and when i brought it to her attention, she was aghast! Shlep some students to Philly. Take a day off. Call up Ruch Limbaugh on Monday and mention the ARI website. Fortunately for her, she's teaching her kids at home, and seems to be doing a good job (aside from the religion, that is). Jonny: You can usually get funding from the university TomM: I would have managed to point out how it's her morality that allows it to happen. We have absolutely no club money except what I take from my own bank account. betsy: Rush read it out on the air last week. Send e-mail to Bloomberg, USA Today, the LA Times, C_SPAN, etc. in support of ARI. KeithD: that's wrong. I'm almost sure ARI provides support to O'ist clubs. Odegard: Uh, not with her. Besides, it wasn't necessary or contextually proper to do that. Segelbe: I've gotten all the financial assistance that I could... Betsy: Rush has never permitted an Objectivist to speak out, as far as I can tell. Betsy: Letters to the Editor CHamilton: Let's cash in on that and get people to the website to sign the petition. mencken: i think it is now on the ARI site. TomM: I'm not saying you didn't do the right thing, just that I couldn't have resisted saying that. Tom: I've heard people mention Atlas on his show a number of times Wright: Letters to editors are good. Letters of encouragement and thanks to prominent allies of any kind are good too. $$$ don't hurt. Keith: do you mean for your own schooling or in support of the club? BradA: True. Remember Austin Heller? Odegard: I've learned what to and what not to say to my customer's...especially since my boss doesn't know what I'm saying at times ;) Raise the issue with people you meet -- get them thinking about it -- raise the issue, without necessarily trying a hard sell. Segelbe: for the club. TomM: Yeah, good point. Rush read almost the entire ARI piece from USA today on Wednesday and even mentione ARI. Someone should respond the the articles in today's NewsWeek. I know I wouldn't do a good enough job, anyone up for it? Wright: yes, he will permit that, but I've never heard an Objectivist be permitted to give an argument of any worth. Did he pronounce her first name correctly? :) Betsy: Did he leave anything important out? Anyone who would like advice on starting a club can e-mail a former club president... CHamiton: I haven't seen the new Newsweek yet. Odegard: Just the website URL. Always happy to do what I can Betsy: yes, that's true, but that is different than letting one speak on a topic. Betsy: Argh. Odeagrd: Well, from my listening, he ad-libbed a bit in an attempt to explain it--incorrectly, I might add. TomM: He mighht be open to having David Harriman or Jason Crawford on his show. segelbe: www.newsweek.com they'll have the article. Betsy: Maybe...we'll see. Anyway, I'm done with my moderation. Thanks for your participation this evening everyone!