IRC log started Fri Jun 13 21:48 Welcome to #Objectivism. Before we begin, I'd like to remind you that all channel logs are the copyright of the channel owners: Pankaj Saxena and Tom Wright. Logs may not be redistributed in any form without the prior consent of the channel owners. Tonight's discussion is on "Why Have Kids" and will be moderated by Betsy Speicher. As usual, the discussion will be conducted in keyword-protected mode. If you see someone off-channel whom you think would like to join the discussion and would not be disruptive, please message me or Wright. Go ahead, Betsy OK. First question. What is SELFISH about having children? (I mean _good_ selfish, of course.) everything, hopefully. I guess they're fun to have around. :) You can see what it was like for you to have had to learn how to be human. Subetai: Do you have any first-hand experience with that or are you just guessing that they're fun? like with your work, you are helping to *create* a tremendous value The love and trust is incredible. Children see their parents as gods (till they are 13 or so;) Betsy: I have experience being with other people's kids. Bearster: What if the child doesn't turn out so great? I think they are fun, when they are someone elses...at least right now ;) Besty: close friends, and watching humans grow and making use of their potential is an inspiring sight Subetai: What, in particular, was fun when you were with them? I basically raised my brother from age 6 on ... it was enjoyable to be his intellectual mentor and to see him grow Children are astonishingly honest. That's refreshing. betsy: that's partly under your ability as a parent to control, is it not? I can't imagine anything more satisfying, over the long term, than raising another sentient being from scratch, and watching it blossom. Betsy: It's interesting to see how they explore the world and learn things. They're cute. They're enthusiatic about things generally, not bored and cynical. BradA: or anything scarier than not being sure you're up to the job. (at least to hear my parents tell it.) Why is gardening so incredibly popular? Brad: IF they blossom? Dear Abby found that most parents -- 70 percent -- were disappointed with the way their kids turned out and wouldn't do it again. Scary! Children, unlike blossoming plants we tend, are wonderfully willful. gardening is like a therapy - you get back what effort you put in Brad: Because you can raise little sprouts without the inconvinience of raising children? Is gardening popular? noone I know has a garden except the old ppl I know who grew up on farms? I kind of doubt Dear Abby's an impartial poll taker. Betsy: re your question to Bearster; that is *the* ultimate test of one's ability to distinguish between what is and is not in one's control, and live with the fact. Kids have minds of their own, don't they? I think it would be scary to raise kids these days...so many bad influences. segelbe: Dear Abby is pretty sensible, unlike here evil twin sister They're usually honest, like someone said. It's not hard to feel comfortable around kids. betsy: they sure as heck have free will, and at a young age Let's say you have no guarantee that your influence will help the kid turn out well. Are there still good reasons to have them? And they know how to have a good time. I enjoy seeing people enjoying themselves. betsy: do you have any reason to assume that they WONT? Betsy: They help _you_ to learn more Betsy: I would like to think that parents actually have a great deal to do with how their kids turn out -- maybe what is most scary to that 70%, is facing the consequences of their basic philosophies in action... Betsy: Absolutely. If there were a guarantee, having children would be less interesting. brad: assuredly so betsy: i would think that the possiblility they will turn out well is one of the major reasons for having kids betsy: But you have no guarantee about lots of important things in life; ex. whether you will like a new job, whether a relationship will work out, etc. Brad: That's true. It's a continuation - the only way we have of continueing once we are gone... Other than our work. Someone on OSG mentioned having kids was like having a time machine, and in a sense I agree with him. Kids can be wonderful companions -- honest, valuing, etc -- or not. I'd say that the rational decision to have a kid is based on your own estimation of yourself as possessing stuff worth passing on, no? (I'll check with my folks about this, though.) ;) segel: worth passing on--to whom? I know parents who looked forward to sharing their values and it didn't work out. Music lovers have kids who are tone deaf. Bearster: to a brand new human being you make (or adopt) yourself. I just love being around really happy, close families. It is such a unique kind of bond, unlike any kind of friendship. segel: the question was about *selfish* reasons for kids... You have to create that circumstance in your life, if you want it to continue on, past that of your parents/siblings. Brad: Family life can be wonderful .. yet there are days ... Betsy: but that is totally out of their control. So, what selfish reasons are there for having kids? BradA: I wouldn't spend the time I do with my parents if they weren't the kind of people I could be friends with. Parental feeling shouldn't be based on obligation, no? parents should have kids to put effort towards - the more thought and energy given to the job (that you wanted to put that energy somewhere anyway- so why not back to another of yourself) TomM: What selfish reason(s) do you have for other activities like your career or hobbies? Betsy: But don't you think they had an unrealistic expectation? That sounds like what I heard of a contemporary composer: he went through med school, because daddy wanted it, then he became a composer anyway. the worst thing a parent can do is try to impose or even encourage the child to follow the parent's optional values. Betsy: Because I get a benefit. I've already said what I thought might be a selfish reason for having kids. Watching them become human. That sounds like a *bad* reason to have kids: assuming they will share your *particular* values. TomM: That _is_ a value, but it is rather passive. You've got to enjoy being around kids. Joe put it better -- optional values. Vs. philosophic values, which you certainly do want to impart by example (honesty, rationality, etc.) What about choosing a career, or a haooby, or having kids because YOU LIKE the DOING. Betsy: Passive? no, i mean take active activities to help them see things. Phil: yes segelbe: definitely not -- I, rather painfully, finally had to distance myself from my own parents, precisely because that affection was absent, and the pretense was just unbearable. the correct or proper result of a 'good parenting" is a happy, rational adult, the creation of an individual and the potential happy life you have worked to create? Betsy: Sure. That's implicit. i mean, why do anything? Betsy: Thinking about it, the relationship with the child is a continuously active process. A two-way one. A hobby is just one way, the baseball cards just sit there or whatever betsy: aside from optional values, is the good different from what one likes? What kind of DOING is involved in parenting and what kind of person would like to do it? betsy: it would be extremely destructive to the child's self-esteem to try to guide or encouraage him into your preferred hobby, carreer, etc. Like that painfully poignant line in the movie *Ordinary People*, where Mary Tyler Moore exasperatedly exclaims, 'Mothers don't hate their sons!' -- like affection was automatic. The "doing" is getting involved in their kids' lives. Betsy: all i can come up with is watching something grow to maturity. It's intellectual guidance, and constant protection of them Phil: You're on the track. A parent needs to be caring, affectionate, patient, attentive.. Doing is giving direction with patience, playing and showing them the world. Tad: That's true. But what does a parent _DO_ that other people might not? Betsy: Much of parenting--from the outside--looks like drudgery: cooking meals at someone else's pace, doing laundry, etc. The opportunities for intellectual guidance are always present: that's what has to keep the drudgery bearable. Amy: Do you enjoy doing those things? I have to say I do love a child's view of the world. His sense of life that seems to say "All of *this* is for me!" Yes :) betsy: i think the doing would involve encouraging the child in the pursuit of what they like, and also giving an example of how rewarding that can be by showing them the things you like. The 'doing' is supervising the intellectual and moral growth of a new sentient being. :) Betsy , enjoy the doing is there a different perspective on this for women vs. men? Amy: What about those things is fun? Bearster: Yes. I'll get to that at the end. I love seeing the spark of discovery in my kids' eyes.. bets: aah Betsy: I guess it can be fun in the same way polishing your car can be fun? John: Isn't the trick, though, to get them doing dishes etc. as soon as possible, and thus minimizing drudgery? :) the doing is providing interesting stimulation for your child BradA: yes. Watching them move from one conclusion to the next.. Actually, the "doing" is teaching and communicating. Sharing my experiences with them - hoping it makes a difference in their lives.. betsy: showing the child how his values and interests can be acheived. Ezra: I would count that as pretty important. I lead a pretty sedentary life, and I know I would have to engage in many more variegated activities if I had kids. Anybody here ever teach someone something? Yes Like I said before, the "doing" is getting involved in their lives. It's more than "intellectual guidance" or "moral growth" - you're around to listen and respond when they have anything to say - questions, problems, simply what happened at school today. Betsy: Yes! :) Raising children is a career choice like any other, and should be treated as such. Helping a child to grow and blossom is the same as an artist painting a marvelous picture, an architect watchng the building take form, a businessman watching the new factory being built etc. Yes. bets: yes. I am writing the manuals for our product right now. computer programming. Teaching is fun, but the great thing about students is that they go home when the class is over. :) Legendre: But with much less control of the outcome. Odegard: School lets parents experience the mirror image of that. :) BradA: lol And in order to enjoy doing it, it takes more than just enjoying teaching or guiding people. You like and enjoy what you're doing and put up with the problems when you have to because they're yours. Legendre: except that the child "builds" himself. Betsy: yes, but more opportunity to observe, and an even more direct awareness of "that is what it means to be human" The essence of parenting is teaching -- and enjoying the process so much that you can put up with all the negataives of the job. Parents provide scaffolding to the child in order for the child to use it as it is necessary in the childs growth joe: I don't think I would agree entirely with that. Parents can have a great influence in providing things to build *with* So there has to be some sense of satisfaction in the fact that they're yours. Very few people would have kids otherwise. Keeping in mind that the parents are for the developing child the concrete instance of what 'grown up " is Parenting is teaching one-on-one. It is more intense and long-range than classroom teaching, but the proces is the same. Betsy: So -- the essential of being a parent, is to be a teacher? betsy: Parents who home-school must really be up to their necks. :) Phil: I think so. Cool. Never quite thought of it that way I think it is important to emphasize the benefits to the parent and the satisfaction of the parent's desires to do the doing. Brad: Some of my customer's home school their kids, and both they and the kids seem better off for it. betsy: yes parents who home school could chose to do it as well as send the child to a regular school - that would be interesting. I think people who don't have kids have unrealistic views of parenthood. Amy: unrealistic in what way? The teaching never ends That way you don't put an unbearable burden on the kid to be something _for_you_. Your needs are being met and you can deal with the child as an end in himself -- which he is. Amy: I'm sure we do. I certainly feel that I "homeschooled" my brother in many ways I think you expect to be able to control the outcome more than is possible :) Amy: If you forget about volition, which I think most people don't take into account. If you like being a parent regardless of the outcome, you won't be disappointed. amy: The Rationalization Zone(R) is a trademark... :) Betsy: How can a parent who's child winds up being the scum of the earth enjoy it? Amy: maybe the problem is that many parents *want* to control the outcome too much. Betsy: for example, what about McVeigh's (sp?) parents? TomM: He can feel, "I did a good job teaching him. I enjoyed doing it. If he didn't learn, that's his problem." Ah, ok. *can* the child of rational parents end up on drugs and in jail? That's possible, joe. But there are a lot of parents who do nothing, too.. there's no "formula" for raising the perfect kid. Tom: Some try to convince themselves that the little Timmy to whom they gave the mechano set for Christmas couldn't have possibly blow up 160+ people. ie. denial jinx Bearster: why not? I mean, they may have an edge, but that doesn't mean they won't turn against reason. You can farm out the teaching of many things, but parents are the primary _moral_ educators of their kids. tom: how much of an edge? Subetai: Again, I think my earlier comment applies -- the ideas parents hold have consequences. Bearster: Well, they won't overlaod their kids with a bunch of "I told you so's..." or "God commands this or that." segel: not I. children will learn - even without the presence of a teacher Parents can control a child's environment and opportunities and most outcomes in his life for the first 10-15 years. That can give him a good head start. tom: no, I mean how much of an edge is 100% rational honest earnest integrated parents? Tom: So ask yourself, if the degree of outright denial of reality evidenced by McVeigh's parents, isn't intimately connected to the fact of his present circumstance? reason is man's faculty metaphysically, all learning invovles reason the trick is to teach children to actively "use" it My parents raised five kids - Catholic, liberals.. we're all so different. I imagine most of your families are like that, too... Brad: I'm not sure what you're referring to. I answered Bearster's question that it's possible for the child of rational parents to turn out irrational. Brad: good point. betsy: This is why so many religious (and non-religious) parents bristle at the ideas imparted to them in the public schools. I have found that people who like teaching tend to like being parents the most. amy: heh, my brother and I are both Objectivists Your parents were...? I guess that's why I have no inclination to have kids. I don't enjoy teaching much. Bearster: Were you raised to be an Objectivist? Subetai: i missed that response. how would it be possible for rational parens to produce irrational kids? One of the reasons, at least. betsy: because teaching is the essential about parenting? amy: jews tom: no. betsy: control the *outcomes* -- in what way do you mean that? -- I'd say the fundamental internal of a child is initiative -- a lazy kid will be a lazy kid no matter what. Joe: Simply because kids have volition. They can disregard what the parents taught them. Bearster: Yep. my father is, I think, implictly an O'ist. but not explicitly, and he's never read any of the material. joe: they don't produce irrational kids. their kids have free will and can turn against reason all on their own. Bearster: I'd be interested in seeing what percentage of O'ists are of jewish heritage. Most, seemingly. :) BradA: But you can teach a child the consequences of laziness - and the rewards of working towards goals. :) Brad not if the child realizes that 'laziness' will not get him/her anywhere and if they do want to get anywhere , they will have to work to change their attitudes /behaviors Good parents like explaining things, have a sense when they are understood or not, etc. brad: it does seem to be that way... Besides, all kids go through a "rebellious time period" where they tend to reject everything they were taught, as an attempt to become self-sufficient. Brad: I wrote an essay about it. Mail me. Back to the topic. Amy: Ok. but you don't teach reason. a child does not grow up to be rational because he is told explicitly reason is better. I'm definitely not from a Jewish heritage :) You teach reason by example and by the content of material you can present logically joe: a parent can certainly refuse to help a child evade. TomM: Separating from your parents -- especially the good ones -- is something all kids have to do to become individuals. That's why the teen years are so tough on everyone. joe: I would think example would be most powerful. Betsy: So...will you get to the issue of why you think women realize more than men that it would be enjoyable to have children? Joe: the way my parents taught my sister and me integrity was to make us accountable for our choices. Betsy: sure. Jim: Glad to. You teach a child that rational things happen - that some things in life are consistant... betsy: Are they really so tough for *everyone* -- many of my friends in high school had pretty good relationships with our families, and things were ok. Most men I know are very reluctant to have kids and only do it because their wives insist. Yikes! Then they have the kids and everything changes. They usually find the LOVE it. Betsy: What characterizes the men who want kids before that happens? :) Some don't realize that till the kids are 30, though ;) My parents were very pro-indepence. I had full time summer jobs since 14, a learners permit at 14, my own car at 17. Most women know they like children. betsy: Really!!! betsy: Why do you think that is? The difference is that girls generally have more EXPERIENCE with children and more of a chance to learn whether they like being with them and doing with them. Are women more naturally teachers, Betsy? That is funny, because you'd think men wouldn't have quite the conception of the, er, burdens of having children. Amy: I don't think so. Women may be more naturally 'nurturing' In our culture girls earn money babysitting while biys mow lawns and wash cars. Phil: I'm not sure what that means. 'naturally' -- predestination? Betsy: that's probably a good underlying factor. girls tend to do more baby sitting than guys. BradA: Nature, as in, as aspect of identity It is the oldest girl who watches the younger siblings instead of her brother. betsy: Ah...I see. betsy: I disagree; it is usually the oldest child, in all my experience. heh, I had no sisters Betsy: I was the oldest, and I didn't really try to take care of my siblings. My youngest sister was more prone to doing that. Boys just don't have the chance to find out if they would like it or not. betsy: but that may be a consequence, not a cause. girls may be more willing to babysit or watch their siblings because they are more child-oriented, rather than they aare child oriented because they have more of these experiences. I did do more baby sitting than most of my friends, however, and I did enjoy it. Betsy at all tied to the child's first comfort or feeling of being comforted stem from post natal experiences with the mother ? I n that children wil tend to seek comfort from the mother and that the mother will realize the feeling of 'doing' for a child ? Tad: That may very well be, but most guys like doing things with and for kids once they try it and the kids respond to them. joe: i think what Betsy is saying is that raising a child is a first hand experiential thing. without the experience, you just don't know. right 'once' they see for themselves9 males0 where as historically , culturally mother see it first ? betsy: This makes sense. But do you find then that boys who do babysit when younger or who do take care of younger siblings are as likely as similar girls to want children? To know that children would be enjoyable to have, that is? Betsy: This reluctance to have children on some men's part, could possibly explain the image of the aloof, stern father. TomM: You don't have to raise a child to find out. Babysitting or teaching for just a little while will give you a sense of whether you like it. Brad: That may be, but it is changing. I think phil was on to something... is there not a component of *nature* to having children? the woman has a body designed for it Ayn Rand knew she wanted to write at it was, what? -- 11? I figure I decided not to be a parent at about the same age. :) Betsy: sure, as I said, i enjoyed baby sitting. And I very much enjoyed it when my sister visited with my two young nieces. We went to the zoo and had a good time. i wouldn't have gone otherwise. I know of many guys who worked and never got involved with their first wives and families. With their second wives and young children they become "born again" fathers. Heh My ex found he was a great father.. once he only had to see them every two weeks. Amy: some men are that way about any committment ;( Being a parent is a huge responsibility for about 20 years Betsy: So, when is the best time to have children? I'm now in my 30's, and am still working on career goals. jim: best for husband or wife? Some people -- some _very_fine_ people -- are not cut out to be parents. Ayn Rand knew it. It is best for everyone concerned if those who don't like doing the doing don't have kids. Bearster: Either. Woman want to gather families. Men want to hunt better things to do ;) jim: I think that it's different for each Jim: Men have more options than women that way. Bearster: Sure...so when is it best for either? Betsy: Was it because Rand didn't enjoy teaching or because she found something she liked doing more? jim: for women, it should really be under 35 or so--not sure of exact age jim: for men it should be when financially stable hmmm... Woman run greater potential physical damage as they get beyond 30's. Bearster: Right. I was wondering if that issue had any psychological component, rather than just the biological time-issues. I don't think you can generalize on the optimal time for having children. jim: it may my understanding is that Rand didn't have kids because she wanted to devote her entire attention to her career. Having a kid is a huge responsibility. I think the priority for _both_ sexes ought to be (1) develop your own life, (2) secure your marriage, and (3) _then_ have kids, if you want them. Betsy: say it, sister! :) I think for Rand, it was because she understood her carrer goals were to work intensive to alow time for proper parenting, no ? betsy: That's a good ordering of priorities. Segel: Parenting is a demanding job -- for a while. Betsy: sure. It's a long-term investment of lots of time. If you are poor, your time will be spent just trying to make ends meet. And without the long-term committment, I mean, why bother? joe: Maybe not an optimal time, but we could generalize optimal levels of personal development and relationship development, such as Betsy just did. betsy: yes but there are degrees of developing your life/careeer. One or both parents might want to partially develop their career, put it on hold for a decade :-), then continue. Joe: that's what my mom did. If things get out of sync in terms of those priorities both the parents and the children suffer. I don't have to give examples. You all have examples of your own. joe: That's true. But it wouldn't be good to put "secure your marriage [relationship]" on hold until after having children. Jim_N: right. Jim: I know lots of people who tried to secure the marriage *by* having kids. :/ segelbe: or trying to secure *a* marriage by having a kid. segelbe: Nothing like being trapped for life ;) Yeah, recipe for great unhappiness and chaos -- marry because of pregnancy [Netsplit at this point. Some people dropped their connections, including the moderator, Betsy Speicher] That is a black hole of evil. Worse yet are the people who have a child to try to bring stability to their own lives, much less a marriage. I'd say that the marry because of pregnancy thing is a manifestation of the mindset that puts duty before happiness. segelbe: yes, indeed. It's partly because of the resistance against abortion. the idea that the accidents in life are more important than the choices. cjs: I suspect many girls of low self-esteem try to use it as a technique of entrapping a guy. The easy cure is no longer available. Sube: And I'm sure the good ole Catholic church promotes anti-abortion for exactly that cause Yeah. Phil: You are probably right. I can see no better way to use rational "obligation' against someone. There was an article in last weekend's paper (I couldn't bear to read it), about the pathology of guilt in relationships. I couldn't believe it. I could simply never tolerate that kind of behavior from a partner. Dr. Laura is evil IMO So, a rational person, when deciding to have children, should work to make sure their personal lives are developed, and that the relationship is sound. Then it is appropriate to have children. Dr. Joy Brown is a way better person Beware the humble: they are the most presumptuous. Phil: yes agreeed. that woman is viscious. Dr. laura has a lot against selfishness. Has anyone here who had children gone through a thought process of ensuring they were rationally ready for children? She's the most duty-mongering creature (self righteously) I've ever heard I do like the way she won't put up with sniveling callers, though. But she does give good advise sometimes. I haven't listened to her in a long, long time because she compeats with limbaugh, and he's been interesting. segelbe: Unfortunately, they're almost all sniveling callers, and she loves to be firm mother to them. What happened? Where did I go? Jim_N: Well, mathematically, I have zero quantity of children, and yes, I went through that rigorous process before having all my children. Jim: I think if you are going to approach it that way, you will never decided. Betsy: you went away. ;) You pinged out, Betsy. The net went fuzzy. segelbe: yeah but most of the time she is destructive because she gets them to force themselve from not having certain emotions, rather than addressing the root causes. she is a bully, not a therapist. TomM: That's what I'm getting at. We've named the preconditions that are best. But how do we apply that knowledge to rational decision making? Jim: Do you think you are ready? Given Betsy's criteria? joe: Right. She actually attacks the need to address the causes of the emotions...telling the caller to just change them as a first priority. Jim: I'd say by balancing values. I don't think there's an endpoint for how good the career has to be or how wonderful the relationship with your wife, other than some level of "adequate". TomM: No. But, I've not decided to have children, since I know that. However, I do want to avoid loosing the option because I put too many other things first. One thing to take into account is what will having children do to your partener's career? People's lives change, too. Even if things appear perfect when you make the decision to have kids, things may not be perfect a few years later. Right. that requires good judgment on your part, then. (determining the right time.) I think it's the same process as deciding what to do regarding a career. when you are about to switch, it can be quite aggravating. I think the "endpoint" is when you think "I'm not going to be worried sick about my job or wife and not enjoy the kids". Tom: But having kid's should obviously be a joint and fully agreed decision. Subetai: yes, many people let things ruin their lives. They want "perfect" knowledge, whihc humans can't have. Brad: of course! Brad: just curious, uh, why are you concerned with those type of prospects? ;) Subetai: Right...preferably stated as a positive value..."I know that things are going well with my career and with my relationship, enough so that I can enjoy having children." there's a big difference between "perfect" knowledge and making an intelligent, considered, well-informed decision. segelbe: Indeed. Jim: right. Some sense of security in the present, with an expectation of security in the future. Other than that, it's balancing values. How much do you want the kids *now* rather than waiting for another promotion or few thousands in the ba bank. Subetai: Or time on my hands for personal projects. A friend of mine just had a baby, yet still manages to program at home...just not as much time as he used to. There are things we can control, and things we can't. In my case, we made the decision to have kids when we were very young - and we _thought_ we knew all we needed to know. I certainly don't regret having kids :) But it didn't turn out exactly the way I had anticipated. Yes, time's a consideration too. Well at the very least, i think the parents at least should be *married* - meaning in a contractual agreement that is assumed will remain in effect permanently (or until the kids are grown at least) Especially the first five years or so. Joe: at the very least. That was a reply to subetai, not joe ;) AmyT: I'm glad it worked well for you to have children, despite not knowing everything. :) re Betsy joe: I think it is pretty rash to be single and have a kid, unless you are really rich. What happened? I couldn't log on to hypermall? The net's lagged. Welcome back Betsy. We've been discussing how to decide whether it was the right time to have children, given the preconditions that you listed. Brad: well not just for the finances, but also for the proper development of the child, who optimally will have both one male and one female parent raising him. I'll have to read the log sometimes. ;-) joe: I think that aspect is highly overplayed. Kids need conceptual guidance. brad: but they also need physical intimacy from a mother (especially frm ages 0-2) *and* a source of streangth from father. joe: I disagree -- those are arbitrary claims. And sexist. I didn't know Rand existed till my youngest was 8 years old. I raised them with a lot of love and taught them everything I could.. But I would have done better if I had learned all this _before_ I had kids. Darn. The discussions over. :p :) Betsy: it went well, despite the net. Phil made a point about the biological differences between men and women some time ago. I think that's a valid point and definitely is a part of how men and women regard having kids. Me too. Amy: We all would have made far fewer mistakes had we known about Objectivism way back whenever. ;) i think the role of mother and father are different, and having both is preferable (but obviously not always possible) Sube: Actually, I think my husband is a better "mother" than I am. Betsy: Could be. I wasn't thinking necessarily of "motherhood". Steve didn't have a clue how much he liked parenting until he actually did it. Sube: Ask an adoptive mother. I think women generally spend more time and effort with children. Then put more of themselves into it that way. Betsy: Yeah, there are exceptions. Adopted mothers or mothers who give their kids away. subetai: perhaps men and women experience certain emotions more intensely than each other, due to physiology? I can't imagine that my husband felt what I felt when I held my kids the first time... Joe: I don't think so, unless I knew what emotions you were talking about and how they were different. Betsy - it's a little frightening to think that men might find that they _don't_ like parenting once the child is born. Sube: It's like anything you put a lot of yourself into. Shouldn't a man know that before the decision is made? Betsy: Perhaps. They've certainly invested time during preganancy. Amy: That's why I think men should "try out" parenting on other people's kids before they decide to have their own. Rent-a-kid? ;) Betsy: Seriously tho, how would you concretely suggest doing that? My son just spend a semester teaching first-graders as a "cross-age tutor." He loved it. He doesn't want to be a teacher, but he definitely wants to be a father. I have a question for the women: how do you feel about having to put your career on hold to have kids? does the increase in working from the home office make things easier? There seems to be some measurable differences in cognitive predeliction between men and women -- I think this explains the humanties/social science, vs. engineering/physical science dichotomy. "cognitive predeliction" :) I suppose in an abstract sense, with her writing as a teacher, she's a "parent" on the scale of billions of people in the future Joe: My career was not on hold. For 2 1/2 years _Matt_ was my career. I think all the feminist tripe about subliminal cultural programming is a load of bs, based on my experience of schooling and my friends. betsy: ok, your other career . I remember quite clearly that apart from shop/home ec, we were all treated the same during school. Phil: If a parent is the moral educator of a child, Ayn Rand definitely is my real mother. Betsy: Same here I can't get thru to Hypermall from Directnet. It stops dead in AlterNet. Sounds like some major switching center is having problems Subetai: The degree to which certain kinds of cognitive processing are more or less facilitated by ones basic mental apparatus. midas: i hope you remembered to put your sun block on ;) I got it, Brad. Found it an interesting way to put it. People obviously vary in overall levels of ability (and only some of this is explained by what the individual can control), and this also applies on a finer scale, with regard to various types of mental tasks. Brad: You might be interested in a article in Scientific American a few years ago about how male and female rats run a maze differently. Brad: When they gave rats the hormones of the opposite sex in utero, they ran the mazes the way the opposite sex did. Betsy: That's intriguing And I think there is powerful evidence that men and women have statistically different distributions in their cognitive abilities, which is reflected in the kinds of things they like to do. No one likes doing something they are lousy at. how does a lady rat run a maze vs. how a man does it? Brad: but the cognitive processing involved with tsciences is identical to that in the humanities - reason, logic, etc. The effects of sex hormones on brains during development is something I've considered re: hetero/homo sexuality, but that's a big can of worms Male rats went in the right general direction -- had the "big picture." Females responded to "landmarks" and other perceptual cues. They noticed details more. I think there are averages on each side, with variations. Nothing surprising. Betsy: I must have missed that one. I seem to remember reading an article by some feminist claiming the dichotomy was still evidence of social inequality and pressure to conform. They have such a disgusting view of man (and woman :) ) -- I despise feminists. Brad: Send me some e-mail and I'll look up my OSG posting about it for you. I have a hard time taking feminists seriously. They have never been a threat to me. They're feminizing part of the world, Betsy. joe: Your claim about the identicality of cognitive demands in various disciplines is arbitrary and does not accord with my own personal experience of there being a vast variety of skills and cognitive demands required of various pursuits. Bryan pointed out the other day that he was mad over TV commercials that always showed girls getting the answers right and boys getting them wrong. Sube: Not MY part. I'm a woman in a man's world and enjoy the benefits of being a woman and being in a man's world. He's right - it's wrong. joe: You might want to take the concepts 'reason' etc., and break them down, especially by starting with a large catalog of *particular* *specific* instances of thinking and mental effort, and what are the various kinds of tasks and categories of same. Amy: There's a lot of truth in that. Girls are generally better students -- at least until high school. Then, look at various kinds of sciences, disciplines, jobs, etc., and ask what kinds of different skills are applied, in what degree, and how often. I need to be going. Nice session. See you later. Betsy: Right. I live in a niche I've made too, where things are right. But what's happening outside it will intrude. Amy: I haven't noticed that but then I don't watch tube much anymore Sube: We have an enormous control over our own lives in so many ways. For example, I used to be a waiter, and I hated it -- it demands the ability to maintain a dynamic, and large, list of concretes, in an ever chaning priority order, AND simultaneously displaying no evidence of doing this feat, and being sociable and relaxed with a variety of people. But it takes a lot of reason to be a really good waiter, but it is quite different from, say, being a computer programmer. Betsy: yeah. But I'd like to make it easier. brad: the processes of perception, concept formation, induction, and deduction are the same regardless of the field. Brad: I was a waitress for a while in my teens. I was rather good at it and enjoyed the interaction with the customers. betsy: I don't find them threatening, just intensely irritating. Like litter and grafitti. Brad: I moved away from a place from a place that had grafitti to one which doesn't and life is much more pleasant. I "move away from" feminists too. ;-) betsy: Yup -- I seem to recall the girls at school often being better than the guys. My best evidence of the bunk of the feminist claims, is that my engineering school had less than 5% women in first year. Trader! You're headed our way. Maybe I'll meet you at a conference or something. hey trader, congatulations on your university admission But I hadn't a clue what the number would be, and I doubt any other guys or girls did. They just wanted to study engineering. I could care less about their claims if they didn't get laws passed. Betsy: Yeah! :) joe: Thanks! :) And I could detect no noticeably different treatment of the girls than the guys. We all got along just fine. Bearster: Primacy of concept? Brad: My honors high school class had 27 girls and 5 boys. The girls became nothings and the boys who didn't qualify for honors became book authors and cardiologists. jim: primacy of consciousness. the view that consciousness creates the world. betsy: I liked it sometimes -- I loved doing banquet service, where the tasks were preprogrammed, so I could focus on service and being sociable. Betsy: There are times when you can't help it affecting you. Ranges from annoyance to major change of plans. I have to go now. I forgot to tell you all: My son Matt graduated Junior High today -- eighth grade. Next September he'll be in high school. congrats!