IRC log started Fri Sep 13 21:48 Welcome to #GeekSpeak. Before we begin, I'd like to remind you that all channel logs are the copyright of the channel owners: Pankaj Saxena and Tom Wright. Logs may not be redistributed in any form without the prior consent of the channel owners. [Also_Subetai] Subetai, the magnificient. Tonight's discussion is on "How to Organize Your Life" and will be moderated by Betsy Speicher. As usual, the discussion will be conducted in keyword-protected mode on the Undernet side, and without a keyword here on Hypermall. If you see someone off-channel whom you think would like to join the discussion and would not be disruptive, please message me or Tom Wright. Okay. Go ahead, Betsy. :) Tonight I'm going to discuss how to organize your things and places -- not your time and priorities which is a whole 'nother discussion. Is there anybody here woho would like to be more or better organized? In what respect? My apartment is a disaster. I have books all over everywhere, and nothing arranged. :) Same with my computer desk. Brad: Why is that a problem? <> Ernie 's place is like museum ;) I can't find things, and it is not conducive to having guests, since it is cluttered. Glenn: How would things be better if they were organized? Yeah, i spend all day at school and work. so does my wife. when we get home the kid ads to the disaster he made a day earlier. I wouldn't waste time having to find things. I can never find anything when i need it and it cuts my study time. <> TomM knows where everything is in his piles of mess ;) So far I've got 3 reasons for organization: finding things, saving time, and esthetics ( it's messy, can't have guests over, etc.) Sometimes I don't want to study and having things messy... serves as a rationalization (actually, it's not that bad....) I find it is easier to work and concentrate with a clean and organized desk. "Oh i can't study my desk a mess" Basically, the two reasons are 1) saving time and 2) looking nice. sounds good to me I pay bills late because they go into the BIG PILE OF BILLS and are forgotten... Considering that organization is desireable, how come we don't do it? Maybe I could invite guests to organize my apartment. :) Laziness. In the short run, it takes time to file "all things in their place" It takes effort to focus and decide what to keep and what goes where. Messiness is a form of evasion, in my opinion How about (4) feeling more confident about meeting schedules, etc., since you know where things are and can find them. Not missing new opportunities because a lack of confidence in being able to cope with the mess. (false economy) Betsy: I always consider what I am doing to be a higher priority. "I'll find it when I need it..." because *of* It takes time to be neat and particular with my work, so sometimes other things get neglected. Jack: I think you are right. Because you live with someone who adds to the mess. Things get messy to fast Laziness ... evasion ... I hear a lot of (maybe unearned) guilt here. [MCMast] M. Christian Mastilak [Looking for O'ist activity in NorthEast Ohio area] Could the amount of time you save bbeing organized equal the amount of time it takes to GET organized? oh, I've earned it all right :) But it is a funny form of laziness, because I don't lounge around doing nothing instead. good point draeco draeco: Once organized, it's easy to stay that way. more like evasion. cleaning, organizing is boring Brad and Glenn and Draco have identified that it takes _time_ to get organized and _priorities_. Right now I've got razors empty cans markers paper towels keys tape deoderant and all other stuff. Why put it away when it's all right here Keith: Does it save you _time_ to have everything handy? I suppose Betsy: it's better for me to have a routine because it's like the sides of a bobsled run. Keeps me from veering outta control. Is it really handy if you have to dig for it? But i do have to look for my keys ;) Bottom line, being organized saves you time -- but getting and staying organized TAKES TIME. I need a maid TomM: However, it is also easy to let things slide, since you think, "OH, I can let it go for a day without organizing it". Then before you know it, things are back to their usual state of disarray once you make the initial time investment, mantainance may be achievable with smaller effort. or so I've heard... The secret of being organized is to take as little time and effort as possible to save as much time and effort as possible. I think the real issue is for appearances, not time eficiency self esteem If it is too much work and you get too little out of it -- DON'T DO IT. I dont think I would save much time if everything in my apartment was in its appropriate spot <> BradA is going to timeshare the rest of this session with unpacking the bookcase he should have assembled. I suppose it's like walking without fetters. Working unimpaired. Michelis: Is "appearances" for your benefit -- or somebody else's? for my own, betty. I wasnt justifying my chaotic appartmnet :) But how do you choose and appropriate spot? Betsy: A clean place is psychologically beneficial...not having it organized has a tendency to bring one down in the dump one has created. should the can be north of the keys or.. I'm all for organization, but very much against OVER-organizing. really, what is over-organizing? I don't see organization as an end in itself or as an intrinsic good. michelis: compulsiveness :) Organizing is to save you time and make where you live and work pleasing to YOU. I like to wash my hands, a lot :) Is there over organizing? Betsy: No, organization is only useful in terms of what it can do for us. I've heard that very tidy people are trying to compensate for a poorly organized mind. Although I usually hear this from messy people... Organizing where the work-required/rewards-forthcoming ration is no longer in your favor. Life is the standard, even for organization. ratio Sube: oh Right now, I have a stack of papers two feet high. How am I supposed to find anything? It's "easier" to say, "I lost it"> Jack: if life hands you lemons..;) Tym: throw them at neat people :) how come the stack doesnt topple? I know this music teacher who is always sitting at his computer making forms and seating charts for his band. He actually enjoys that more than teaching. haha Most people I know with have unrealistic, intrinsic standards of organization which they never meet and constantly feel guilty about. He's very organized at doing nothing. Betsy: that IS my problem... Betsy - that's definitely *not* me :) Glenn: sounds like a defense mechanism. I sometimes find myself not realizing I neeed some organizational aid. I have been helping a position search at work, and have become confused because I've not organized a system to track the flow of the applicants. I understand that Immanuel Kant was extremely organized too. And Ayn Rand had a very messy desk. My desk is a total mess - but I can usually find something within a minute. too high standards and i can't reach them so i say shy do anythin Betsy: can you give us sone generic or specific examples of this? shy = why Betsy: she was Russian ;) Lurch: Sounds like you have a good "filing system." Betsy: and he was German. Betsy - yeah, when it starts to fall on the floor, I sort through it and toss all the junk I guess I feel guilty about my messy desk at work because people are always saying "Shame on you!", not because I suffer at all because of the mess. OK. Let's say that you want to get more organized in some area of your life for YOUR benefit. Let's take an example -- like somebody's desk -- and I'll give some general how-to principles. ok Isn't neatness (on the appropriate level) like a metaphysical clue that you know the facts of existence? I mean, if you don't know where things are in your own space, do you try to keep track of where things are in general? Tom: deep No, that is not one to one and onto :) Tom: actally, there are some things you need to know ehere they are -- like bills you have to pay. Other things are less critical -- like your fifth grade report card. I'm VERY organized at work. I have to be. Home is a mess. Who has a messy desk? I do ME ME me me I do. I baz does. ;) ME again me too Mine's pretty neat. Betsy: My bills are kept in one place..as for my old reportcards, I don't have them ;) Michelis: What's on your desk? I have a *working* desk. ;) jas:freak :) [EricT] 25 M, Single, Bellevue, WA, Self-Employed, Photo Available Online hi <> Tym 's coworkers don't think he has enuf work (which isn't trew) because his office is neater than theris :/ My computer, papers, empty coke cans,ink Baz - your desk is messy only when compared to Lisa's I have a messy desk (would have answered sooner, but had to find the keyboard.) I balance the "stack" very carefully. only two cans, from tonight :) Michelis: What don't you EVER want? There is a cheerleader pom pom that I dont know what is doing here Empty Coke Cans. Unless you use them as ashtrays when the real ashtray is out of reach. It might be a relic from my wife's early years sube: that's disgusting ! Stacks can be higher if you put paperweights on them! My desk could vanish tomorrow and I cant think of anything that I'd really be in trouble for losing.... Keith - at least he doesn't chew all of it can go, except the comp Jay: and scaffolding Michelis: Can you throw out the pom pom now? If not, why are you keeping it? ok, gone. Betsy: his wife would probably kill him... ;) I just threw it on the floor Its not a pom pom, its a cat :) haha it's an uneaten orange Jack: or aTribble ;) now the floor is a mess michelis - yo uhave a fireplace? I have this trouble with tribbles Is this a comedy routine? In general, throw out anything you don't want, can't imagine using, etc. third base! [AaronD] "I've got a strong urge to fly, but I've got nowhere to fly to" no, I live in married housing at UF. 650 sqr ft Okay, so you organize things based on a scale of "most frequently used" to "haven't touched that in a year" Betsy: I do that every once in a while...you have to be careful, though, and not just throw it out because you can't remember why you kept it in the first place. I need to get a garbage bag Betsy: I have done that only to discover some time later I need it and wished I hadn't thrown it away. Or "things I didn't unpack last time I moved" I really had to do that before I came to college oh well, then you have to pick up the floor - I just shove it all into the fireplace and strike a match. Betsy: my dad's a packrat, so I overcompensate the other way. instant recycling My girlfriend and I are both messy, except when we live together, because we each hate the *other's* mess, so we are both neat as leverage against the other! The guiding principle in organization is UNIT ECONOMY. Take what you want to keep and categorize it into a small number of simple, PERSONAL, categories. Betsy I have too little space for the amount of stuff I have I'd be a lot neater if it weren't for the IRS Michelis: Does your stuff fit into your current space? what do you mean by PERSONAL categories, betsy? But some things can't be categorized! Keith: That's a category Keith - that's what "misc: is for Keith: then a simple descriptive phrase will suffice. not really betsy. I have books crammed everywhere, computer equipment all over the place Then i'll have only one file :) DONT have a misc category. I have a huge drawer full of that stuff.... <> TomM has a stack of semi-junk-mail that goes in a "may get to that later" stack. Keith - then your criteria aren't fine enough I also have a 16 month old boy who like to 'play tornado' through the house It can be bigger with a paperweight And when it gets too big, I throw it away ;) Jack: Any category with personal meaning. For instance the categories for things on my desk are "stuuf I am using today" -- "stuff I am using this week" -- "stuff I will put away where it belongs" -- and "stuff that I haven't decided where it belongs." Tom: like food ? Tom: Type the essence of the stuff you want to buy into a text file, then throw out the physical reference; you can fit many many "want to potentially buy" information into a text file occupying a tiny fraction of your hard drive. Eric: Sure, but that won't get me the money to purchase that stuff...it's really a kinda wishful thinking stack. My food is organized like : stuff in cans, stuff in bottles, starchy stuff, snacks, etc. Yeah, computers are great organizing tools. So's a good filing cabinet. Betsy:wow Tom: That depends on your perspective into it; it could be motivational, to get you to work harder, to look at the list of things you can potentially buy by producing more. Eric: That's true as well. I'm gonna organize my desk right now. With conscious purpose and see how it turns out! One good way to get organized, Ive discovered, is to move. <> Tym goes in search of "encirclist" categories. or get evicted Betsy: i ahve a different organization for food. Those things I eat most often go on the most convenient parts of the storage areas. Jack - never helped me, I'm afraid I and the stuff that goes bad you find later :) Betsy: a good suggestion I read in Dale Carnegies book "how to stop worrying and start living" is when you get correspondence, take care of it (i.e. answer it ) AT THAT TIME. That way, it is taken care of, off your desk, out of the way. I've found that nothing forces organization better than to displace things from where they've gotten comfortable and stagnant. For example, just clear a part of a room totally of all stuff. Okay, why's it bad to feel guilty for not having organized stuff as well as you should, knowing the advantages of organization? Is it bad? Subetai: The time could be spent organizing it, instead of feeling guilty about it. Subetai: So is an empty carton that Xerox paper comes in. They are fully inclosed, uniform in size, and stackable. I use such bixes for various unorgazied stuff I don't want to throw out like "Memorabilia" , "Misc Objectivism," "Interesting Stuff to look at someday" [npandya] 27, grad student, physics, UCI Subetai: i think the point is that if you can find it when you want it, why are you using a different standard and feeling guilty about it? TomM: Right on! betsy: right Tom - exactly. If I can find it, it's organized. Just because YOU can't find it is no reason for me to feel bad. One problem with getting organized or clean and staying that way, is that you have to tidy or clean that which is already pretty clean or tidy. What if you have too many categories for the space you have. You can;t do ruthless cutting. Eric said something important about getting organized once you have decided to do it. Yeah, but most of us have times when we can't find something we urgently need, and then we realize it could have been organized better. Of course, since I live alone, I can live with it...but when I get a live-in girl friend, i'm sure some changes will have to be made ;) Betsy:Do you make your home "cleaner than usuall" for company? Break the job down into parts and start with the EASIEST part first. Betsy: I have too much stuff for my small apartment, and a toddler that constantly messes things up Dr. B made a point in some lecture about keeping the goal in mind while carrying it out. I have a frien who is a roommate, who had difficult with a mess, and I helped him my telling him to evacute absolutely everything out of his room, then bringing things back one at a time, organizing in the process. (evacuate) Keith: That is an overall motivational skill. Know what needs to be done, organize the doing in your mind (into parts), then follow the game plan. did he do it? This weekend I'm going to file a bunch of papers from my "To be filed box." I'm going to start by making new file folders since I like doing that part best. I kept on repeating it until he finally did it. Bet: It's take more time! [BradA] http://www.hookup.net/~baisa/ I ended up putting a file in the front of each file drawer of "stuff to be filed in this drawer" (I think that's what they call TR in scientology) That helps because even baz can get stuff in those files. ;) Jasra: Hmmm...did you eventually file it? ;) Tom: Yup, about every 2 weeks. Michelis: If you had to throw out half of what you own, what could you live without? You might start by packing it up into labelled boxes and putting them aside. It you find you really need something, you can dig it out. Jasra: That makes a lot of sense. If you spend too much time organizing, it's counter-productive. I think the "evacuate" idea is great, especially while you're putting in new carpeting! Betsy: Right. And this way it gets the stuff off of my desk and baz's. :-) [Madelaine] i'll take your wisdom...i'll turn you to dust. you fill my ashtray. Finn Bros. Jasra: Why file them twice...why not put them in the correct file in the first place? I could get a smaller bed maybe. Then I would have more floor space in the bedroom. I have two computers hooked up to one monitor and three printers I guess I could stop getting junk computer equipment TomM: Because I'll just pick up one of the dreaded piles of paper around here and go through it quickly to get rid of it. I don't mind filing, I don't like doing it a little at a time though. [bazyar] The Man with the Golden T-1s To be honest, I sometimes dont go through those piles because Im afraid of what I'll find! No matter how well you organize, you always need an "unorganized" or "to be organized" category. Jasra: i do that at work. Every once in a while I aphabetically file old work sheets, but I stack them aphabetically first. Betsy: People who spend more time organizing than using the organized stuff, is exhibiting a very rationalistic tendency (are exhibiting) Like a book with an index which is larger than the actual text [Angus_] Chris Hamilton, 17, hs senior Jack: You might want to make one place for "Really Important Stuff" that should never wind up in one of those piles. The you can accumulate "unorganized" but non-critical things, shove them into a box it you have to, and never lose something important. bye evryone I have a rule of thumb that works great if I use it. If I haven't used something for 6 months, and I have no specific plans to use it, I get rid of it. I am going to sleep bye michelis ERic: I've done it, it works! Eric: I started out by stating that you shouldn't be over-organized. organization should save you more time than it takes or you shouldn't do it. I have a great way to get rid of books I've read but don't want to lose track of the fact of having read; I write down the ISBN, title, author, into a spreadsheet of all the books I've read. Then I can get rid of the book knowing I can re-acquire if if I need it. Eric: I don't do that until it looks like I'm nesting. Eric: I should do that with computer junk. I have a 12 year old 1200baud modem. Like as if I will ever use it. Eric - yer willing to hold stuff longer than I, but that's pretty much what I do too How much has it cost me in time and effort over the years to keep and move and store? I could buy one for 50 bucks -- assuming I would EVER need such a thing. I finally decided to get rid of computer mags > 1 year old. There are a lot of CDROMs out now that replace them anyway I know a *lot* of people who don't get rid of old computer equipment. I've automatized feeling a sense of impatiente at seeing something needless occupying my space. It's a great motivator. So if I may -- here is a principal: context -- of value *to whom and for what*. Brad - lol - I have 6 300 baud internal Apple II modems - within arm's reach right now I ahve a two-seater couch. the other side I use to store magazines and books I'm going to read / have recently read. When it gets to unwelding, I shuffle it to the core. BradA:But dont you find yourself thinking up all kinds of improbable scenarios in which you would REALLY need that modem some day? Lurch: Throw them out NOW. Lurch: Or start a museum. Jack: Simple solution -- imagine how much it would cost to reacquire it, and compare it with the cost of the space being cluttered Eric: I agree Jack: Exactly! And this is ARBITRARY -- it is elevation of idle conjecture to a truth status unwarranted. The correct way to think, is what is the cost and ease of getting a modem. One of the things that I've found to be a great barrier to throwing things out is when the stuff has enough market value to be worth trying to sell, but it is not easy to find a buyer. Hmm...I have an old cp/m machine sitting on the floor collecting dust...wrote the first ten chapters of my novel on it (just a few years ago). Brad: Try this: Get 3 big boxes. Go through everything in the room. One box is THROW OUT. Another is GIVE AWAY OR SELL. Third is ANOTHER room. Everything in the room belongs there or goes in one of the three boxes. You should be able to un-junk a room in an hour. I've found I can get over this feeling, by finding somebody who I know will make at least some use of it; there's a terrile feeling to throwing away something that's still useful. I use the burgular test:"If this was stolen in the middle of the night, would I ever know?" Eric: Would you like to buy a 14.4K baud internal modem? Brad: No. :) Jack: or would you be glad Brad: My computer can't use something that fast or I'd take it off your hands. Tom:Hook it up to your Kaypro Actually, this is reminding me of all the junk I have in boxes in my used-to-be walk-in closet ;) Sometimes just categorizing things into THROW OUT and GIVE AWAY unclutters a lot -- especially if you have packrat tendencies. Organizing space can easily get lost in tangents like arguments; one can start throwing away unneeded things, then get caught up going through an interesting book that gets dug up. Jack: don't have one of those. Very true ... it makes a big diff. to stop accumulating hundreds of pounds of paper in the form of mags and stuff Tom: You're better off with junk in boxes than all over the place. Right? Especially eye opening is the yard sale. One has alot of stuff that strangers won't buy for a quarter (KellyT@U) It's terrible, all the bad things you guys are describing fit me to a tee. Eric: That's OK to. Discoveries like that make an often tough organizing session more fun. I've found having a very big shelf to be very useful for reducing the square footage of accumulated things; this can be further reduced by putting things in boxes and putting the boxes in shelves .list U [#GeekSpeak@U] HAL9001 X LurchGS PaulF_ KellyT Betsy: Oh, sure...and I look through them every once in a while...I used to love tinkering with electronics, so there's old motors of every type in there...along with resistors, capacitors, etc. and an old hand-made amplifier I never got around to finsishing (found another solution). Betsy: As an occasional and short-lived detours, yes..but I'm talking about cases where the organizing project gets halted for the day, and doesn't get started the next day Hey! I could probably build a robot that would do the house keeping ;) I accumulate old magazines. Subscribe to dozens of them. Every few months, I put them in a box and cart them off to the library. Junk can be fun to have -- as long as its not getting in your way. As long as 200 pieces of interesting junk are in one neat box, you're better organized. Subetai: supporting a statist institution! TomM:But then all the junk would be part of the robot and you wouldnt need it! I hardly ever throw out books, even if I'll never look at them again. My library is stacked two books deep, with some piled don top as well. Keith: Not quite correct. A worthy institution, typically inappropriately financed. I'm amazed at how much stuff I hold just because it's not convenient to rent it; things like many tools, I rarely use, and would rather not even own, if I could get them within a couple of minutes of notice when the need comes up. Eric: Then you make a pile or box of "interesting things I must look at as soon as I finish organizing this room." Keith: Supporting? Not really. They give 'em away. i like libraries. Brad: gotcha Jack: good point! Guess I won't do that after all...kinda self-defeating ;) Betsy: :) Tom - I agree. in 25 year's I've tossed exactly two books Sube I worked for one As far as important paper goes, I have a bulletin board to stick bills and stuff onto. Keeps them from keeping midplaced what a novel idea! Brad: Doesn't a library kind of cheat, and defeat part of the idea of copyrights? Tom: We have a lot of books, too. We decorate our wall with them. Much nicer that wallpaper or panelling. Yeah, doh :) How many people here have lost more than 5 ATM cards? Eric: pishposh. Old computer parts are good for wall decoration as well. Betsy: Well, I only ahve two book cases, though i really need four (but no place to put them). Tym: pishposh? I have two piles "today" and "whenever", a cardboard box for bills, and an envelope taped to the wall where I put checks for the company <> Angus_ has an XT ready for hanging in his room Eric: about libraries. TomM: So make a box of "books I would put in 2 more book cases if I had them." Lurch: That sounds very reasonable and workable. Betsy: They do better piled on top of the other books, or resting behind them...double stacked, remember? Tom: Do you put the books you most want to get at in front? Tym: Does the value of a book consist of the physical item, or the reading of the idea contained in it? If I buy a book, and read it once, is it fair that teh author gets the same royalty from me, as from the library, which results in 20 people getting value from the book? Betsy - it would sometimes help if the piles didn't cover my scanner, printer, and keyboard, though 8-{) (that's how I know it's winnowing time - can't keep the junk off the kbd) Betsy: Yes...and I also have four bags of books on the floor that I haven't read yet. <> BradA finished assembling his bookcase except for nailing the back on (it is midnite here) and promises himself to finish it tommorrow, and set it up. Eric: When people read libraty books, if they like them, they tend to buy them. library. Libraries popularize books and give people incentive to buy them for keeps. But let's save this until after the scheduled discussion, please. angis: not true It's good for authors. sorry --stay on topic Eric: there's nothing stopping anyone from adding contractual riders on top of already existing copyright law. Hasn't happened, so it must not be a problem. Lurch: A good time to get organized is when the time it is costing you to be unorganized is more than the time it would take to get organized. Bottom line -- the purpose of being organized is the SAVE TIME. What about the esthetic aspect? We haven't talked about that in detail yet. How much organization does it justify? Actually, I have old bills dating back more than twenty years in boxes...trouble is, just when I trow them out I just *know* I'll get that IRS audit in the mail ;) good point Tom: I thought they don't audit back more than three years or so Eric: Oh...guess I can toss them then :) Betsy - works out the same, for me Subetai: As for esthetics, please yourself (and the other poeple you live with). Tom - IRS can't require you to keep bills/receipts more than 5 years (last I heard) 8-{) Subetai: I'd prefer large rooms with very sparse amounts of furniture and as little clutter as possible. The only way I know to achieve that is to use a computer and eliminate as much paper as possible. Betsy: I like things to be clean, if not always neat. That's about the limit of my esthetic concern so far. Well, that's just an escuse anyhow....they aren't in the way, and it takes effort to toss them. Subetai: Unfortunately, other people still insist on sending paper in the mail, so that has to be dealt with. My desk is now neat. It looks great! can we have this topic every week? :) Some people are neatnicks who have messes. Others can tolerate disorder. This is a personal option. Unfortunately the first type usually marries the second type and they have to make accommodations. ;-) But I can imagine that if I had more time, a larger apartment, etc., I'd organize things more. Frode: the "Scandinavian" look? ;) neatnick wo HATE messes, I mean Frode: Right. I never keep anything on paper that could be stored on the computer. bye. good discussion! Tym: The Frode look. The walls and the floors and ceilings should just be big screens... :) Subetai: Isn't there a maxim that says "messes abhor a vacuum"? In other words, space will be utilized. now what about my floor? Subetai: If you had a larger space, you'd probably accumulate more junk. Frode: cool :) (Clay@U) I'd keep everything on the computer if I could find a good way to read in bed. If the material is on CD-ROM, dump the paper and use that 1 ounce disc :) Betsy: Well probably, but there'd be more room to walk around it than I have now. I like large, spacious rooms. Frode - virtual reality gone bozo phil: wunner how much paper that equals :) Keith: Can you put the stuff on the floor in a box and give it to the trash man? I did something radical a few months ago. I gave away wall my sci-fi books. All of a sudden there will only be X-6 boxes to move the next time I relocate. bbl wall->all Other than that, just keep buying more shelf space. Sometimes I think pack-rats think the world will cofme to an end tomorrow, and they never know what they might need, so they keep *everything*. Subetai: So do I. That's an esthetic issue. It's midnight Eastern, so the scheduled part of the discussion is over. But please keep talking. (Clay@U) Though there is something cool about walking in to a persons study, which also happens to be my room.. and seeing stacks and stacks of books.. Tom: I think it's an accumulation of "I should have had that" every time they didn't have something that would have been convenient to have, and formed an illegitimate kind of integration. An extreme case is my aunt. Never through anything out and died with two rooms of rented storage space and no furniture! threw Eric: That too. I'm going to look for new carpeting. Bye all. bye jackt Will someone please answer my questions now? Now, I will just have to make room on my desk for my new bookcase which is to help to make room on my desk. :) <> Jasra slaps Ernie around with a Purple NerfTrout (tm) :) Esthetics is a cost/benefit thing too. <> Ernie reels from the mighty blow ;) Ernie: what question? Don't ask If you are afraid of throwing things out realize that (1) you can buy most things, (2) most information is available on the WWW or in libraries, and very few things are irreplaceable. Brad - sounds like me - I'm using a 10 foot table, and one end of it is holding a 48" high bookcase Just place the esthetic value in the hierarchy of values, and invest time accordingly TomM: I've been trying to get people to tell WHY it's not moral and practical to have a welfare state, if that is in fact what the majority want. Betsy: That brings up an interesting point; if a protocol existed to ensure that a particlar page, once committed under the protocol, will always be available on the WWW, it would make things a lot easier. :) I learned a lot about being tidy when we sold our house and move to a smaller one. We gave away a huge amount of (organized and neatly put out of the way) stuff we didn't need. Ernie: The majority is not a proper standard. i ahve the right...and the sole right...to what I earn. Tom most of the argument has been on the political level but you can't answer those questions without arguing, ultimately on meta. and epi even ethics is not deep enough Betsy: i did that when I moved to Texas. Anything that wouldn't fit in my car I threw out (didn't have any furniture). Ernie: It would be moral, if truth were decided by the size of your mob. Tom: the proper standard is the values of the individual. Of the majority of the polity wants a compassionate society, then that's an expression of their individual values. Ernie: Because you must not sacrifice _individuals_ to "society" -- which means to other individuals. I think we should also do a discussion on organizing one's time. Sube: I agree. Betsy: I move regularly, and every time, I tend to throw out a lot of stuff, mercilessly. I am still fully alive. :) Brad: Just don't throw away both of your kidneys. :) How about it, Betsy? Would you moderate? Whenever you can, within the next month or two. No rush. Ernie:No way...keep your grubby collectivist paws off my money! Epistemologically A is A...what is mine is mine...metaphysically, I worked for it, you nor anyone else did. Subetai: That is an issue of determining personal values and setting priorities which is a much more difficult thing. oops...did not. Tom: good gritty formulation!! Betsy: It would be great if you could do a discussion on that. Betsy: that's rather hard rhetoric. All that's being advocated here is a safety net for the less fortunate. Betsy: How about a session on being an effective, productive programmer. ? (dante@U) hello I'll think about it. I have to narrow the discussion down to something manageable. Betsy: LIke in Andrew Berstein's course, "How to be an Impassioned Valuer." Have to been to that one? Ernie: Paid for by theft. Betsy: Yes, but there's a lot of nitty-gritty stuff there when it comes to weighing values that are kind of close to each other in your hierarchy. Also, there's the question of implementation and monitoring how well you're doing at it. Ernie: Never forget WHO is paying for the net. Ernie: They will ahve to manufacture their own net...they take away mine with ever tax dollar, attempting to make *me* one of those "unfortunates". Ernie: No payer, no net. Tom: it's a matter of whether you want to be part of this society or not. If you disagree with the majority, yr free to try and pursuade others. Ernie: What differentiates that from some private Robin Hood stealing from people to give to the needy. How would your feel, if someone stole everything you had, and gave it to the poor abroad? Subetai: Could you moderate a discussion on that? That would be great. Brad: it's no use. He'll just say it's for the sake of compassion and your just a extreme objectivist. Ernie: If three men were on a desert island and 2 voted to kill and eat the third, does that make it right? Ernie: Persuasion ends where a gun begins...remember, those tax dollars for that net is forcibly removed from my wallet! Subetai: Maybe something on managing your time once you HAVE set your priorities. Gilles: I'm not very organized at that. I tend to get caught up in work I enjoy and forget other things. Some people claim that "Bill Gates can afford a few million to help the needy." Betsy: sure, that sounds good good night!!! Betsy: what about keeping up motivation for a long term project that will take years to accomplish...any insights? I usually respond with something like, "it's not your money with which to pass jugment about affordability." I'm so tired about the Microsoft whining. Either build better products and market them more effectively, or get out of the way. Man, the computer industry is full of wimps. All: this is just all extremist rhetoric. That fact is, the majority want a safety net, and it's worked for over fifty years. tired of, that should be Subetai: If you're spending your time on work you really enjoy, it sounds like you're managing your time VERY well. Ernie: it's worked to poveritize the entire country! Ernie: Worked to deplete America's power and degrade rights. Your philosophy dying. Get used to it. Tom: Dr. Peikoff talked about that in San Francisco. Tom, phil: like I said before, maybe it's not as efficient as laissez-faire, but it's more compassionate. (dante@U) Hey, what about me? Betsy: The "Judging, Feeling, and dnot Being Moralistic" tape? I got that...it's helpful, but just. Tom: Ed Locke also has a tape out on goal setting with a lot of good tips for accomplishing longe-range goals. And if MS keeps spending money developing things and giving them away, they will simply put themselves at a financial disadvantage relative to competitors. They can't give away free everything, and you can only get a market for a short period, since everything evolves so quickly. Ernie: I left the wondeful welfare state of Norway because the majority wanted to take my money and have a "satefy net." My grandmother died because the wonderful healthcare system that made up part of that net had deteriorated into rationing. Ernie: It's not compassionate Betsy: got that one as well (lock). Ernie: So don't talk to me about compassion. Talk to me about theft, about the use of force, and ultimately, murder. Frode: so the system there doesn't work. Why does that mean that a safety net as such can't work. It has here. Ernie: Please explain to me what is compassionate about stealing. Ernie: Be compasionate with your own money, not mine. Ernie: Now I'm here in the "land of the free." And I see Americans such as yourself wanting to throw away your freedom. Wonderful. My take on immigration policy: some Americans should LEAVE and make room for productive immigrants. Or: have a bleeding heart with your own money, not your neighbor's -- it isn't yours to spend or dispose. Brad, Tom: this is just pure rhetoric. If you want to belong to this society, you have to play by the rules. Otherwise just go live on a desert island. Ernie: If you were in Nazi Germany, would you still advocate "playing by the rules" ? Ernie: So the "rules" of any given society have to be accepted serenely without evaluation? Is that what you are saying? Ernie: Do you think it is compassionate to thwart the desires of someone who produced what you want in order to take it away from him and give it to someone that YOU think deserves it but the guy you are taking it from DOESN't. <> TomM votes to have Ernie put on a desert island so he can learn the facts of life. Frode: and you'll notice that the voters in Norway voted to change things when they saw some things not owrking out. Ernie: You are simply using the morality of altruism to justify coercion and expropriation. In other words, you advocate sacrificing the healthy to the sick or feeble, precisely because they are healthy. Betsy: You ahve any other insights into motivation? Ernie: Norway is just as firmly socialist as ever. I have family over there, so believe me, I know. This is the philosophy claimed was pure evil, and she was correct. It is not compassionate at all, in fact, it is a philosophy entirely contrary to man's nature and needs, and achieves nothing but destruction and slaughter wherever it has been practiced, to the degree it has been practiced. Ernie: How about changing the rules if they're unfair. Would you tell a slave in 1840 "If you want to belong to this society, you have to play by the rules. <> TomM wonders why we are arguing with Ernie aka Tym? Obviously, Ernie and Tym are not the same. Just using the same account. Brad, Betsy: you can think what you want, but it's not going to change the attitudes of the majority, who WANT to have a safety net. O'ists are just irrelevant and won't change anything. oops -- I meant to say "philosophy Ayn Rand claimed was pure evil" Is this a "devil's advocate" exercise? Ernie: If we are irrelevant, then go away, please. Wonders if Ernie realizes this country would not exist if certain people had played by the rules Actually, I wish Ernie was a real person so I could ahve the pleasure of kicking him ;) Betsy: not a proper analogy. We have constitutional safeguards, while allowing the will of the polity to express itself. Balance. You are not here to convince, you are not here to learn, you have no apparent purpose here. By your own statement and logic you should leave. Please do. Tom, that's gross oops Ernie: You are advocating that men have the right to sacrifice other men. You are advocating slavery. In the long run, it is you who are irrelevant, because in the long run people will not be enslaved. Brad: Just exactly how much constitutional safeguard is sufficient to force people to endure injustice? Brad, Tom: you haven't shown me that the welfare state is untenable. Why should I take you seriously? Ernie: The majority did not always want a safety net. Once they preferred individual rights. It's a questin of what they regard as moral. Ernie: We are relevant because we're making people realize that they're being suckered. When they find out, people like you will be less than popular. Betsy: but if they can get what they want, yr position is irrelevant. Ernie: Actually, you are the one holding the gun, and you haven't shown *us* what basis you have to take our money an give it to slothful people who do not even feel appreciation for our hard work. Frode: you call it being "suckered" but it works. Ernie: If desires are the standard, then what about my desire to keep what I earn? Eric: because people shouldn't starve, that's why. Ernie: You may think taking our money to be popular with the slothful bums "works," but only for so long. Ernie: Irrelevant to what? Tom: yr not the majority. Ernie: What is your standard for "works"? Eric: I do not understand your question, about "enduring injustice". BradA: I was making reference to the fact he is saying people should "accept therules" because there are some safeguards in place in the US, in response to the Nazi example. I was asking him how much safeguard is enough, so people should "accept" injustice. Ernie: If you want to fight for minorities, what about the minority of one person? A majority is just a mob. Wright: we've had a safety net since the New Deal, so people won't starve. It's better than the alternative in most peoples' minds. Ernie has made an excellent point about the majority getting what they want. This is exactly what John Galt and Francisco identified, and realized must be fought: the sanction of the victim. Ernie: Reality will not allow them to get what they want. As the people who are _providing_ the safety net get wise to the racket, they will not get what they want at all. <> Subetai beats up Ernie. Ernie: Why should we cooperate with you? Earnie: If people don't want to starve, they should go out and earn their food. :\ I could have spelled "Ernie" correctly, too. Ernie: turning people into less-than-rats i.e. ghettoes is not an act of compassion...but compassion is not the standard, anyhow. Betsy: ok, but until such time as the majority decide they don't want a welfare state, then it works. Ernie: There's the key "in most people's minds" you actually see starvaion as the result of a lack of welfare? no - it doesn't work - it's just a matter of time before people realise it Come on guys, stop using the word "welfare" Ernie: See, the flaw in your system, is that the productive don't need the idle. As soon as they are taught that, then they withdraw support of the leeches. It is only the remnants of your altruistic philosophy keeping the system going. And altruism is dead dead dead as a philosophic/intellectual force. Egoism is on the ascendancy, big time, and will not be stopped. Eric: the majority consensu balances out an extremes. It's legalized robbert. Ernie: If the majority want to be wealthy tomorrow without effort, does it "work," too? robbery. At least use the right word. In my most impoverished days, that tax money could ahve masde the difference between going hungry and eating after I got paid. more and more are coming to their senses daily - ending welfare wasn't a political issue even 10 years ago Brad: but the productive i.e. the majority, WANT the welfare state. So yr argument's hollow. i.e. the middle class. Ernie: Are you personally guaranteeing that this "want" is permanent? Ernie - B.S. - the people ON welfare want it. the productive people do not Ernie: Your argument is refuted by the facts. For example, the people of Ontario overwhelmingly elected a conservative government who pledged to cut welfare dramatically. Ernie: They won't want the welfare state once we teach them what it really is. BradA: Is altruism dead as a philosophic force? The fact is at present altruism controls the field. In the US, Clinton will win because of appeals to altruism. They went from nearly 20% behind in the polls at the election call, to get something like 60% of the popular vote. npandya: Clinton will win because of *Dole's* appeals to altruism. So your quaint notions about the popularity of welfare are a historic figment of your flailing imagination. You are Borg. We will be dissimilated. no, he'll win because there is no difference between him and Dole, and people take teh "better the devil you know" attitude :) Mpadya: Strictly by inertia. As far as I can tell, Objectivism is the only live, active philosophical movement. Betsy, Brad: if it comes to that, fine. But I would hope that society would want to be compassionate to the less fortunate. And until that happens yr rhetoric is just hollow. Nobody CARES about yr selfishness. np: I hear Clinton making enough appeals to self-interest and individuals. He is no Ted Kennedy. Ernie: I care about myself -- and that's all that matters. <> bazyar wonders if BradA gets a different version of Bill Clinton than the US does Ghaki: I don't believe that is true. Dole's tax cut of 15% is quite selfish. It is being rejected at present because of arguments on what it would do to Medicare, Social Security, welfare etc. Ernie: Next time let's talk ethics instead of politics because that's where the majr disagreement really is. Ernie: just who are the "less fortunate"? Do these include armed robbers who escaped being caught, and unwilling to make a living, go around committing minor thefts? The same Clinton who not a few years ago tried to foist a gigantic socialized medicine system on the US? Well, he is a very American kind of collectivist. :) Baz - certainly he does - ernie: compassion CANNOT be forced Betsy: but why should the rest of society care what you think? Yr not gonna change anything. The welfare state is practical, and no one here has even tried to show how it isn't. Bye everybody. Time to go. simple Thanks for the discussion, Betsy. Goodnight. Oh, certainly Clinton (and many Democrats) try to sound more like Republicans -- during election season. Yes, and the very same Clinton who's given up on trying to foist a big program on the country. npandya: Bob Dole is known as the tax collector of the welfare state for good reason. it's is widely known that he is a pragmatic welfare statist at heart. Ernie: Whether or not welfare is pratical, depends on what one wants to practice. Given up? Or biding his time? Ernie it is NOT practical, and I regard it as IMMORAL. Next time ethics. Bye all. baz: Well, then that just demonstrates where the intellectual centre-of-gravity is, and it is shifting. Bye Betsy sleep well, Betsy by Betsy -- thanks IRC log ended Fri Sep 13 23:26