Welcome to #GeekSpeak. Before we begin, I'd like to remind you that all channel logs are the copyright of the channel owners: Pankaj Saxena and Tom Wright. Logs may not be redistributed in any form without the prior consent of the channel owners. Tonight's discussion is on "One-Sentencing" and will be hosted by Betsy Speicher. As usual, the discussion will be conducted in keyword-protected mode on the Undernet side. If you see someone off-channel whom you think would like to join the discussion and would not be disruptive, please message me or Wright. Go ahead, Betsy. :) Tonight I would like to show you a thinking technique which I teach in my writing classes. I'd like you to try it and see what happens. I call it "one-sentencing" and it consists of stating an idea in a single, simple sentence. I gave three examples to try. Did anyone try it? Betsy: Can you recount those? I'm afraid I missed it. Volunteers, please. We won't be critiquing content, just analyzing method. what were the 3 e.g.'s? First one was "How were you introduced to Objectivism" Sube: Thanks. Second was "Why is it important to be moral" Third was "Describe Bill Clinton" :) Well .. I tried I did all but the third Anybody think this is _easy_? Bill Clinton: A whining safisticate acting as if he is a good-ole-boy. Not real easy ;) It is important to be moral because your life depends on it. I tried, but have trouble making anything "simple". Bill Clinton - A legend in his own mind Actually, one-sentencing is VERY hard, and takes a great deal of mental effort. I'll try the second one first: It's important to be moral because in order to live, you must act in a way that supports your life qua man. Bill Clinton possesses zero integrity. I was introduced to Objectivism by a high school physics/chemistry teacher who gave the class a bunch of need-to-be-read books, includidng _The Fountainhead_. Shain: That's right. Simplicity is difficult. I discovered Objectivism after finding that Libertarianism left far too many questions unanswered Morality- What is the alternative? A friend introduced Objectivism to me by giving me a copy of the Virtue of Selfishness. I was introduced to Objectivism by a friend who gave me a copy of ITOE. I can see that one particularly hard thing about the one-sentencing is trying to make it include essentials, and non-floating abstractions The wages of sin are death Bill Clinton is an unprincipled man. The first question was rather easy and, I suspect, the Bill Clinton example was probably the hardest> Betsy: yep I mean you could say: Bill Clinton is president. So what? The first one was easy because there was not much to say and the last was hard because there was too much to include. I suppose you'd ask yourself what is the one fundamental underlying characteristic of Bill Clinton. philo: is that all there is about bill clinton? Bill Clinton expects facts to be infinitely maleable according to his whim of the moment. Objectivism - The "good" will always triumph over evil Shain: You're on the right track. Kristin: No, that's my point. Including essentials is the hard part It is important to be moral in order to survive. The idea of one-sentencing is to fit a lot of information into an itty-bitty sentence and you have to be SELECTIVE. Bill Clinton is a pragmatic subjectivist power lusting whim worshipper :) Aha - selective - that sounds like art! :) Glenn: That was simple but covered a lot of territory. A comma-separated list, Phil? :) :) Phil: You got a lot into one sentence. What did you have to leave out? I was given _The Fountianhead_ to read as a class assignment by a teacher who's integrity was constantly under attack by the school administration. Betsy: I think a limitation of impromptu speaking is that it is unordinary for people to think for a minute or two before speaking, which time might be necessary to distill the concept. Betsy: That he's president .. that's significant .. huge minor details .. Bill Clinton uses man as his measure of the given, not reality. People's opinions are what count. Bill Clinton is, first and foremost, a second-hander. Shain: Both art and thinking are conceptual activities. JVC: That's why I gave out thopse examples in advance. It takes time to sort thru the data and pick the most important things to include. I said: morality is important because it is the basis of honesty, starting with honesty to yourself Glenn left out that Bill Clinton doesn't care at all about principles (he's a-principled). Betsy: I find myself stumbling over words trying to "cut and paste" while in mid-sentence, just so I can make sure what's coming out is essential. Kristin: that's an inverted hierarchy. ;) Kristin: What could you have said that didn't fit into the sentence. It's messy, but continuing making sounds, as silly as it sounds, can keep attention -- in the short run. JVC: You can't do one-sentencing "on automatic." You have to evaluate as you go and stay very mentally active. That's why it seems easy but is really so hard. I don't know about the long run. Probably just makes one look incompetent. sorry, had a power failure. I use Objectivism to defend myself from men like Bill Clinton. Morality is important because it is necessary for life and life is the standard of importance There is a lot of trial-and-error involved in one-sentencing. My mother introduced me to Ayn Rand (her love of "The Fountainhead"), and Ayn Rand's powerful ideas introduced me to Objectivism. Betsy: In what sense? You mean while talking, or over the course of one's life? I almost need to ignore english rules and make a horrible run-on Sometimes my sentence will be _almost_ right, but I have to stick in something more or something doesn't fit. "Bill Clinton is the type of man who would sell his mother, but only after finding out whether it was popular in the polls." JVC: I lost the referents in what you're saying. Betsy: To what extent is it valuable to go even further and try to "one word" (or "one concept") not just single-sentence? Ghaki: It that a quip or a summation? Ghaki: substitute "his soul" for "his mother", and that about sums him up ;) Would it be fair to say that one-sentencing is very much akin to the art of writing a definition? <> Subetai1 -> Subetai Betsy: you said "There is a lot of trial-and-error involved in one-sentencing." In exactly what sense? Immediate, or long-term? Phil: Sometimes I ask students to make an 7-character license plate ;-) but one-sentencing is better. Melody2: Good point. Phil: a sentence is a _complete_thought_ in ways that words and phrases are not. Betsy: The difficulty with one-sentencing or any kind of communication is the presumption of knowledge on the part of the other person (I find I tend to be very wordy trying to define my terms and concepts as I go along). Betsy: saying someone is a Peter Keating expresses alot more than listing their characteristics one by one. I was wondering whether you were looking for something along those lines. Melody: You're anticipating me -- very good! Betsy: Ok JVC: Immediately -- in the process of coming up with a sentence. Shain: The art is in guessing the appropriate context of knowledge of the listener. It's naming the essential characterstics - the ones on which most others depend - which is similar to forming definitions. JVC: agreed. Betsy: Ok. Makes sense. Shain: Being "very wordy" is the usual starting point. Subetai: It's also being able to find the words that you expect your listener to understand in the way you do, so you're not redundant. Shain: Then you select the words that are the most important. One-sentencing is something I do for ME -- to clarify my own thinking. Betsy: can we try another one? Betsy: Good point. The human mind can only keep so much in focus at any given moment. If you read Ayn Rand's journals you see her doing "one-sentencing" all the time. Betsy: Good point. That's what the exercise accomplished for me. :) Big storm on it's way, No UPS - have to go fast - Bye all! When I did the "Clinton" one I just dumped memory of everything that came to mind about him and then selected the most important characteristics. So what's your summation of "Why should one be moral" Betsy? Sube: Choosing the right actions will lead to success and happiness inlife. That's most fundamental, or that's most explanatory to most people? Sube: That's MY answer, but I'd like to focus on the process involved. Okay. The "right answer" is a matter of personal context. Yeah. To me, it seems that the most relevant answer would include that it's a state of non-contradiction: where my actions aren't contradicting the value I place on my own life. Betsy: I spent a great deal of my college time debating with people in BBS discussions. I found that being terse was valuable in the sense that it helped me discover exactly which concepts in my postings were at issue. Then I'd address the Let's try another example -- this time of problem solving with "one-questioning." Betsy: But it's important to note that one-sentencing is more valuable in one-on-one, where you can more easily guage your listener's knowledge context than you can a large audience. Betsy: I imagine that one-sentencing forces one to assign precedence to what might be somewhat competing values (that is, to choose one as more important than another). JVC: One-sentencing is important in delimiting the subject matter for any writing. That's why I teach it. So you don't have to necessarily use the word you are describing? like "it is important to be moral because...."? Shain: That's the whole idea. What is most important? What is the most basic? or "Bill Clinton is...."? Betsy: When I write documents--even technical--I almost always write a one- or two-sentence introduction to ground the forthcoming document. It helps immensely. Glenn: You might. The idea is to express a complete thought. A subject and a predicate. Betsy: Would you advise following the old simple sentence learned in English: subject, verb, object? Glenn: Entity and action/characteristic/ causal relationship. Shain: It could be A is B, or A does B, etc. Right Subject = Entity Predicate=action/characteristic/causal relationship Clinton does have a wayardness with words, doesn't he? Try this. You are going outside in five minutes and you are trying to decide what to wear. Put that into one relevant _question_. What's the weather like? Is it hot or cold outside? Weather is more inclusive. Could be warm but raining Where are you going? To a formal occasion or to work out at the gym? phil: sure, but I already know it's not raining ;) What are the environmental conditions forecast for my general destination? I'd better look out the window to see how the weather *is* How do I keep myself as comfortable outside as it is inside? Interesting. Nobody said "What kind of clothes do I have in my closet?" What do I wear with the context of knowledge I have now (or can gain in the next 5 min) about the weather outside What am I going to wear? Hmm lol, good point betsy I assume I have the clothes to meet any conditions ... Betsy: I was taking that as the known in the question. That does pose a constraint eh ;) Especially with _my_ set of clothes Betsy: You are assuming clothes are required What's suitable to wear that'll keep me comfortable physically and mentally. When you phrase a problem in a simple question, it focuses you attention on the _problem_ -- coping with the waether, the demands of the occasion, etc. Subetai:mentally? How about: Where am I going, what am I doing, and for how long? Who, what, when, where, how, why ;) Kristin: Sure. I'd be uncomfortable wearing work-out clothes to a formal restaurant. true, if I'm just going outside to get the newspaper outside my door, i wouldn't change And if I'm really clever, I think about any possible changes in conditions so that I can be prepared to switch as required. The most important part of problem solving is focusing on the problem and the key is asking the right questions. It's a variant of one-sentencing. Betsy: The number one rule of problem-solving is UNDERSTANDING THE PROBLEM; attempting to solve a problem without understanding it is GUARANTEED to fail. shain, i agree, we have no little information too=no Therefore: The best question is: What exactly is "the problem" I need to resolve? So what's the nature of the problem? To figure out appropriate clothing (from among whatever you have) for the occasion and weather? Shain: Ayn Rand one simply stated that "The answer to any problem is always IN the problem. The focus in problem-solving should be on the problem rather than on whatevers answers you mihht happen to have which don't necessarily fit. Betsy: How would you define the concept 'problem'? Phil: A problem is an undesirable condition (that you seek to improve). Betsy: Ok Phil: How's that for impromptu one-sentencing? Phil: For the "positive thinker", there are no problems, only opportunities ... So knowing _what_ the desired condition is, and discovering the difference between the current state and the desired state, leads to solutions in effecting that change.. No offense, but I need to be going...too tired to focus on this...g'night. i.e.: Know the goal, know the current reality, and then figure how to make the change to the goal If you try one-sentencing, you'll find it gets easier with practice and it really helps clarify your thinking. Betsy: What's your answer for Clinton in a sentence? :) Betsy: We've done one-sentencing and one-questioning; I imagine that one-imperativeness (?) is also a valuable tool, especially with children. Phil: I have Clinton is the ultimate pragmatist with superficial self-confidence, a good memory, and a mental time-frame of about one day. Betsy: Interesting, ok Sube: It depends on what YOUR problem is. If it's cold out, where you're going, for how long, who will see you, etc. Betsy: How would you put it in one sentence? how about: what available clothing best suits the environment I will be in? So the first thing to address is: What's the most important part of the problem. Is it that you have few clothes to wear ... or is the constraint extreme weather ... or is it that it's a formal occasion ... or combinations? (thinking out loud) If I was going out right now I'd say "Will anybody see me?" :) "best suits" covers a lot of variables... Betsy: Wouldn't the answer then be pretty contextual on whether it's man or woman? :) That's a good point, Betsy. The nature of the problem is contextual too. Betsy: I applaud you for being honest about Clinton's most positive aspect (his memory); I couldn't bring myself to face it, but it exists. :) It's reasonable to assume the person you're with knows the weather as well as you, and if you're a man or woman. Tomorrow I'm going to hear Andy Bernstein and I've given it a lot of thought. The issue is "What do I look my best in?" You might try describing the people you know best in one-sentence. Try answering the question: "What makes me happiest in life?" That's easy: If they like me, they must be brilliant! :) I'm happiest when I'm satisfying my curiosity about any number of things. Betsy: The second one is a really good one for me; I still haven't reconciled the concept of "being happy". This ought to help. :) :the act of looking for and sometimes finding truth and beauty The answers are related ... I've thought that an essential aspect of who I am is curiosity ... thus I'm happiest when discovering new knowledge There is an interesting book that came out decades ago -- I don't know if you can still get it -- called _Life_Sentences_. It was written by an English professor who had his students describe a person's entire life in one sentence. Subetai: Real close to what you said :) Yeah. :) Feeling in full control of my life. I'm happiest when I see something I can admire. Any examples from it that you remember, Betsy? With me, I'm happiest when applying abstract ideas to real concrete situations. That's what all the various things I like have in common. Earned success shall exalt you. Sube: I don't recall anything off hand, but I remember that some of them were very sharp and some were quite funny. Betsy: What do you mean by sharp? Intelligent? I one had a friend who was trying to decide on a career to answer this question in one sentence: "The thing I most like to do is ..." Phil: Precise and to the point. Betsy: Ok I got disconnected: GROWTH makes me happiest (condensed from "Exceeding my previously held LIMITS makes me happiest (I think)". There isn't much more to say about one-sentencing except "Try it, you'll like it." "most like to do" actually means "that which I could do for the longest period of time and continue to enjoy it" right? Night all :) Not necessarily the most intense enjoyment one could get from one thing. night BG Betsy: I already do like it, can we try another one? Sube: Right. It also means which things you have done in the past which gave you the greatest sense of fulfillment. ok Betsy: I suppose same applies to finding romantic partner .. "How could I describe my ideal mate in one sentence?" ? Betsy: Thanks. This has been insightful. Gotta go. Good night, all. The reason I gave my friend that sentence was that she was on the wrong track and was asking "What _should_ I do?" Phil: I'm not sure one wants to be too simplistic ... for every complex problem there's a simple solution -- which doesn't work. Phil: Absolutely! It helps you clarify your values and focus your attention on your goals. How would you categorize rational people, based on their personalities? Betsy: Ok Shain: Principles are always simple -- although finding them can be very difficult. One-sentencing IS thinking in principles. Scheduled part of the discussion is over, folks. Please continue. Enjoyed it Betsy. Sube: All rational people I know have a good working relationship with reality and are active valuers. I enjoyed it too. Thanks for coming. Betsy: That's one category. How would you subdivide that? This triggers a thought about one part of Atlas Shrugged ... when the strikers are describing why they went on strike, it was sort of a one sentence summation. Ragnar because of justice, etc. Sube: Therer are many "varieties of the rational." Betsy: What are some that you use to classify rational people you know? Ayn Rand is constantly one-sentencing. "Bill Clinton tries to be everything to everyone, so he can do anything to anybody." Sube: How I classify people has to do with my purpose in making the distinction. Betsy: how would one use it when writing something that is longer, like an essay? Ghaki: You're not only one-sentencing, you're one-punch-lining. Sorry, disconnected again. Betsy: have you noticed a change in your one-sentence responses to questions over the years, or have they (and your principles) remained consistent? Betsy: Okay. I guess I should be more specific. Do you differentiate "personality-types" ? For instance, I'd think that there would be differences between the average scientist versus artist. What words would you use to state those succi "Dr. Akston quit on the principle of sound banking" said Midas Mulligan. "I quit on the principle of love." ... "I quit" said Ellis Wyatt "because I didn't wish to serve as the cannibals' meals and to do the cooking, besides" ... "I quit" Kristin: I do that in my writing classes. I have the students one-sentence their basic message and also one-sentence their _purpose_ -- what they want to accomplish by writing the essay. THEN they do the first draft which magically see Got to go.. thanks for a great discussion, Betsy later Tom goodnight all i have an essay to write this weekend, I'll try it, thanks Sube: I differentiate by personality if that is relevant. If I were looking at people as potential investors, I would delimit by how much money they had. If I were looking for a teacher, by how much knowledge they had etc. Kristin: Put down those 2 sentences asnd also the name of a _specific_person_ -- maybe your teacher -- whom you are addressing. Have that in front of you when you write. Okay. Personality is relevant for me in that it's an indication of how much I can like them personally, how easy I find them to understand, etc. Kristin: Also, you need a personal _selfish_ purpose. "I am writing this to get this goddam term paper over with" won't work. :), awwww..that one usually works Sube: "Who will be a good friend for me?" Subetai: I would go by how productive they are. If they seem to be rational in their words, are they rational in their application of that rationality to their work, regardless of their field. Kristin: How about, "I want to clarify my thinking on .." "I want to prove ..." "I want to show ..." "I want to make a case for ..." Betsy: Yes. But in asking that, I'm looking deeper. If I make a category "people who can potentially be good friends of mine" I've already classified them in some way that has to do with that "personality-type" I was asking about. Betsy:doesn't work for this particular essay Glenn: Those are generic rational values. I'm trying to subdivide. Sube: What kind of person has been a good friend for you in the past. Anser in one-sentence. ;-) does I'm writing it so that I can pass the class work? Perhaps I should describe some of the categories I have already. They're not very accurate, which is why I asked ... Kristin: You are very likely to run out of motivation before you are finished. Try to dig up a personal, selfish goal and the writing will go MUCH easier. I have one category for people who are what I call "low key" - it means their excitement or joy doesn't show so much in their bouncing around the room as it does in telling expressions you see on their faces once in a while. I tend to like such people. Sube: Sounds like a good start. it's getting late. Goodnight. Good discussion, Betsy. I'm trying to figure out what the essentials are that lead to such "personality traits" later Kristin Sube: When it copmes to your own personal values -- friends, career, lovers, etc. it is important to ask, "What do I like and why?" Bye Kristin. Nice meeting you. Betsy: right. There are things that I'm indifferent to, personality-wise, but I'd still like to categorize them.